On Wed, 3 May 2000 20:04:02 -0700, sal wrote:
>> I would say that with such a system the conventional grower will
>> harvest a better *quality* product than the vast majority of organic
>> growers who, in their stubborn infatuation with materials issues, may
>> get it right about not using "chemicals" but generally miss the boat on
>> soil building, mineral nutrients, organic matter management, nitrogen
>> fixation, understanding the weed community .... and on and on.
>I would say your are wrong wrong worng IMHO u don't know [or] understand organic
/ Bluestem chuckles quietly.
>don't tell folks they can do both because it don't work.
On what basis do you make that statement? Give concrete examples,
[sal] when u add the chemical ...
>> fertilisers (such as ammonium sulphate, mono-ammonium phosphate,
>> potassium chloride and micronutrients) along with judicious use of
>> carefully selected chemical pesticides (such as Imidan, Roundup, and
>> assorted fungicides). ...
[sal] u just work against yourself.
Ammonium sulphate and mono-ammonium phosphate are known to *increase*
soil microbial activity, as is ordinary (not triple) super-phosphate.
How is that working "against yourself" ?
Modest amounts of potassium chloride, when blended with potassium
sulphate and sul-po-mag can provide a staged release of potassium over
several weeks, increasing the sugar content of fruits and the starches
of potatoes. Both are elements of quality. How is that working "against
Boron increases calcium uptake and improves the efficiency of
photosynthesis (sugar metabolism). Copper and manganese increase
disease resistance (thereby reducing the need for fungicides). Zinc
mediates dehydrogenase activity, producing a metabolically healthy
plant. How is any of *that* working "against yourself" ?
Imidan (at calyx) effectively controls plum curculio in apples with
almost no negative impact on beneficials, compared to the "organic"
alternative of rotenone which pretty much wipes the tree clean. How is
that working "against yourself" ?
Spot treatments of Roundup will control field bindweed (creeping jenny)
in place, compared to spreading the weed all over the farm by
attempting to control it mechanically (a 1/2 inch fragment of this weed
will start a new plant). How is that working "against yourself" ?
Organic fungicides are notoriously hard on beneficials (sulphur on
beneficial mites, copper on earthworms), and often of marginal
effectiveness (no kickback, except for lime-sulphur under very specific
circumstances). How is wiping out an early phase infection (compared to
fighting secondaries all season long) working "against yourself" ?
> true organic is about balance ..
Where is the "balance" in an out-of-hand and a priori rejection of a
whole class of tools?
Most of the time, most chemical treatments will not pass a reasonable
evaluation to determine which is the most appropriate tool for the job.
I remind you that I have not rejected *any* organic techniques, nor
have I suggested that organic certification is not an appropriate
marketing tool for some people. What I have laid out is a vision of
what CONVENTIONAL production *could* become --- an agronomically,
economically and environmentally sound, organically-based production
system that avoids the bureaucracy, the legalism, the back-biting, and
the philosophical ranting that too often characterises some elements of
the organic industry as it is presently constituted.
> u are a organic inspector. oh brother. I would hate to have u
>as my inspector .
Yeah. What a novel concept ... an organic inspector who actually
understands conventional production systems well enough to know what a
hard-core nozzle-head's response to a particular problem might be. I
guess I should have been a philosophically correct art student instead.
Maybe that might make me a better inspector.
>I don't think you know what organic is .
/ Bluestem chuckles again.
If you want to make someone angry, lie to them.
If you want to make them absolutely livid ... tell them the truth.
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