<R.Kneen>
<R.Kneen> ------Original Message------
<R.Kneen> From: Rebecca Kneen <rkneen@ramshorn.bc.ca>
<R.Kneen> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
<R.Kneen> Sent: April 20, 2000 6:41:09 PM GMT
<R.Kneen> Subject: RE: micro-farming etc.
<R.Kneen> Well, I wasn't going to weigh in on this one, enough having been
<R.Kneen> said. However, Bruce has pointed out something worth noting:
<R.Kneen> Lion is
<R.Kneen> selling his micro-farming idea, in the form of franchises.
<R.Kneen> Apparently
<R.Kneen> all he gives away is abusive language.
<R.Kneen> Thanks to Andy and Bruce for thoughtful and concise responses.
<R.Kneen> I'm planting too.
<R.Kneen> Rebecca Kneen
--------------------
<Lion Kuntz replies to Rebecca Kneen>
Someday there might be franchises for those who find it hard to get set
up by themselves, so that ecologically-benign high-yield profitable
microfarming can be established at the rate that heads off the 30,000
species extinctions each year caused by human usurpation of habitat for
harmful low-yield poisonous "green revolution" farming. For now we are
all out of luck. Having been attacked in emails and public postings I have
decided to play the game by the rules of the ruiners: give as
good as I get.
When push comes to shove, it is 30,000 gentle species who pass
away because of the pushiness of the takers, who take even what they
cannot use or need.
You will note that it cost not one cent to obtain all the information on
my website, including links to many scores of other informational sites.
No credit card forms, no shopping carts. What ads you see are placed by the webhost without my
consent or affiliation with the advertiser. Not one cent was charged for my "online seminars" given
for free to all visitors 24 hours a day. My "online book" does not tell it all, but it tells a lot
to get one oriented in where the information exists if one chooses to go help themselves to it. Not
one tree died for my online book.
Where is the treeless online Permaculture book website, where you can help yourself for free to
information you can use?
--------------------------------
<B.Bacon> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:36:27 -0500
<B.Bacon> From: bbacon@mtn.org (Bruce Bacon)
<B.Bacon> Subject: Re: Permaculture pyramid
<B.Bacon> In the early 80's I found much encouragement from the developing
<B.Bacon> decentralized self- help education and emphasis on practice and
<B.Bacon> experience-based learning that Permaculture brought forward.
<B.Bacon> It may seem like a pyramid scheme to the Lion guy with the
<B.Bacon> cutesy name, but the currency I've seen is more informational
<B.Bacon> than luchre.I wonder what product he is selling?
<B.Bacon> Something got him stirred up, maybe he could plant
<B.Bacon> something everyplace and become a world expert, comment
<B.Bacon> critically on some listserv and make web pages.
<B.Bacon> i guess I'll go planting now.
<B.Bacon> Bruce Bacon
--------------------
<Lion Kuntz replies to Bruce Bacon>
There is no doubt that Permaculture can be a pyramid scheme, with a PC graduate holding seminars on
PC, certifying PC graduates who go on to hold PC seminars and certifying PC graduates, and not one
in the chain ever raising a surplus crop for sale of even one tomato. Look at the price on the
seminars advertised. They range from many starting at $350 to over $700 for seminars.
With such large profits from selling seminars, who needs to be wasting their time feeding people
food you have raised surplus to your own edible landscape? Why bother the low-income "agriculture"
part of permACULTURE, when you can have high-income selling words and a tour of your private gardens
and charge hundreds of dollars an hour selling nothing but words?
My caustic comment was directed to a sarcastic flippant reply by a "permaculture" advocate,
criticising a genuine commercial integrated biological aquaculture system (albeit, one of very
short-chain food-webs, and dependent on high-tech and high-initial investment). People in glass
houses should not be throwing stones. Has anyone ever seen a farmer's market stand with a sign
saying "Certified Permaculturely Grown"?
As long as "Permaculture" makes no claims of specific productivity, makes no claims of testable
productivity, makes no recommended cropping matrix to produce testable productivity, it is an
ambiguous, anything-you-want-it-to-mean term, which means nothing actually specific.
Registered trademarks, as in "Demeter", "MOA nature farming" "Oregon Tilth", "CCOF" have value as
brand names to assist customers and producers to find each other in the marketplace. "Permaculture"
has skated for a long time as a "teaching system" of "design principles". There is no specific
product other than the "informational currency" exchanged around the use of the trademark for
"luchre" attached to the transactions. Who has ever seen a FREE "permaculture(tm)" seminar, once,
anywhere?
Signed Lion Kuntz
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