Hi wytze,
Thank you for your obviously well thought out opinion that "The remark
by Douglas on pulsing is correct. Your remark that "Douglas is correct
to ask for measurable and repeatable evidence" was equally well put
and I congratulate you for your prescience.
Regarding your statement:
w> I would say that the only way to find out is to build a little
w> orgone accumulator oneself and see if it really works.
I would like to state as a matter of record that I know very little
about Reich's work and / or orgone accumulators. I remember seeing
picture of people sitting in them, about the time that I was taking
sunbaths naked on the roof, playing tennis, listening to Joan Baez and
taking a few courses, myself.
I would also like to state that I have no intention what-so-ever at
present to build a little (or any size) orgone accumulator myself in
order to see if it really works. Nor do I plan on trying out one that
someone else built. However, I have no objection to anyone else
building them or sitting in them to their hearts content and reserve
the right to change my mind if and when further evidence is brought
forth on the subject. (But no one should hold his, her, their or your
breath).
Lastly, I would like to state that I have never felt threatened by
either by Reich or by any of his orgone accumulators. I am sorry to
hear he was persecuted and can assure all of that i was neither aware
of this nor was I personally involved.
I am also sorry to that Mr. Petrik passed away, and I hope his son's
sells a lot of proprietary microbials to the people who want to use
them. I also hope they work as claimed.
Douglas
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
Saturday, April 01, 2000, 3:50:03 AM, you wrote:
w> Hi,
w> I am very fascinated to see Reich's work being discussed. The remark by
w> Douglas on pulsing is correct. He is also right to ask for measurable proofs.
w> However, here we meet a lot of problems. people like Reich and Schauberger
w> found things that are apparently so threatening to the established order, that
w> no matter what happens it will be denied. I have read their lifestories years
w> ago and when the matter with Dr. Pusztai happened I recognized the same
w> pattern of denial by establishment happen again. But Douglas is correct to ask
w> for measurable and repeatable evidence.
w> I would say that the only way to find out is to build a little
w> orgone accumulator oneself and see if it really works. Every now
w> and then, I hear about people who work succesfully with Reich's
w> concept. Apparently some people have managed to apply the orgone
w> principles correctly, but they will not be recognised in our
w> present societies, at least not by the scientific establishment.
w> What do you expect: Reich had to flee from Hitler, was hated by
w> Stalin, the Catholic Church and was finally destroyed by the
w> ....FDA. He was one of the first to realise, demonstrate and warn
w> for the great dangers of nuclear energy, he also was one of the
w> first who opposed the view that genetics determine our behaviour.
w> Since he was the son of a farmer, he always had a strong love for
w> (organic) agriculture and small farmers. I am sure he would be
w> delighted to know that his work is applied in composting
w> techniques!
w> regards,
w> Wytze de Lange
w> Douglas Hinds wrote:
>> Hi Hugh,
>>
>> Good post you wrote, Friday, March 31, 2000, 11:08:52 AM:
>>
>> You DO think about things. (But this will be stretching the envelope
>> for sanet and I'm not subscribed to most of the other lists this will
>> go to - so they bounce back). To begin I'll jump way down to where you
>> refer to...
>>
>> HL> However, back to the issue of life. Douglas has pointed up here
>> HL> that he is unable to contemplate Reich's orgone accumulator
>> HL> techniques, which Petrik used to supercharge his compost cultures
>> HL> until they were so rich in complex, organizational patterns that
>> HL> they rivaled and frequently exceeded Pfeiffer's Compost Sterter
>> HL> which contained the biodynamic preparations 502-507. This takes
>> HL> some explaining. It doesn't all follow easily from my seed
>> HL> thought. It has to grow on you.
>>
>> In order to contemplate it, I'd have to be able to conceive it, first.
>> And I've grown to trust the framework I've been able or fortunate
>> enough to develop. It's like a compass that let's me know where I am
>> in relation to other things.
>>
>> HL> Here's what Douglas points up [in relation to my saying]:
>>
>> >>HL> They [Petrik's cultures] were so charged up with life energies
>> >>that they drew in more HL> life energy very strongly.
>>
>> >>That's a little hard to define.
>>
>> Referring to "life energies"
>>
>> >>I sincerely think BD would do best to ground their claims in
>> >>measurable units. Otherwise, we're just talking about preferences,
>> >>and anyone can be emphatic. Defining the results as well as possible
>> >>would be more likely to induce anyone interested to try it on his or
>> >>her own.
>>
>> HL> Point well taken, Douglas. Myself I'm not too sure what measurable
>> HL> units to ground things with. What we are dealing with here are
>> HL> holistic systems. Patterns. Any tiny fragment of one of these
>> HL> holistic patterns reflects the entire pattern.
>>
>> Maybe so, if you know where to look for it. The important thing is for
>> the map to fit the territory. If your abstract the principle to too
>> great a degree, you may lose the link. I will quote my friend Hugh
>> Lovel in order to illustrate that point:
>>
>> HL> ... It is interesting that the higher the complexity of patterning
>> HL> the higher degree of order achieved in these islands, and the more
>> HL> successful these islands are at drawing on the chaos around them
>> HL> to create order.
>>
>> The key word there is complexity, or diversity; and that is highly
>> specific. On the other hand...
>>
>> HL> Thus Wilhelm Reich's rule that life force flows from lower
>> HL> concentration to higher concentration.
>>
>> I would say that there's a pulse principle at work. The flow is from
>> lower, to higher, to lower etc. That's also your yin/yang principle.
>>
>> HL> This was the rule he observed that allowed him to develop his
>> HL> orgone accumulators, cloudbusters, medical DOR busters and so
>> HL> forth.
>>
>> Well I was never aware of any measurable results from those things (as
>> mentioned), and measurable results simply means that 1).- they can be
>> repeated, and 2).- a pattern can be discerned and presented (that's
>> the knowing where to look for it part). Then you can measure it.
>>
>> I don't think measuring things in this way is disqualified by the fact
>> that "what we are dealing with here are holistic systems". Those
>> holistic systems are well defined, to the trained and knowing eye, and
>> *I* think that this is what we really want to do - not gloss anything
>> over.
>>
>> HL> And since these patterns are dynamic and furthermore are organized
>> HL> into systems of systems of systems, etc. of dynamic patterns it
>> HL> doesn't make much sense to pull isolated measures out of this
>> HL> flux.
>>
>> Sorry Hugh, that's overly general in my book. I think you're painting
>> yourself into a corner by losing the specificity, the diversity. What
>> you want to do is *define* those dynamic patterns, systems of systems
>> etc., not simply label them as such. There's no progress in that, and
>> progress does matter, just as time does. We're going somewhere, and I
>> don't feel like I'm in the back seat, or just an observer.
>>
>> HL> I can tell you the bottom line on my farm, however. Money. Income.
>> HL> Prosperity. If the methods work prosperity ensues. I don't have to
>> HL> prove anything to anyone other than my banker, do I?
>>
>> Let's assume that people by your products because they're living
>> giving.
>>
>> HL> What do I care the intellectual obstacles people with PhDs have to
>> HL> seeing how well my methods work?
>>
>> Their criteria may not recognize or give importance to your success.
>> They may be a distance between you that doesn't necessarily put you at
>> a disadvantage.
>>
>> HL> How many folks do you know who even survive farming 16 acres in
>> HL> today's America, let alone doing so for 25 years and getting more
>> HL> and more momentum in the process? I CAN'T prove anything to those
>> HL> who don't want to see, and the others who are curious take all my
>> HL> time up schooling them on how to think for themselves, empower
>> HL> themselves right there at the wellspring of where it all comes
>> HL> from in common, everyday life. Turn off your TVs, folks, stop
>> HL> eating fast food and grow into personally uniting thought and
>> HL> deed.
>>
>> No argument. Your confidence speaks for itself. I'm going to have to
>> leave it at that, though. Got up at 3:30 am.
>>
>> I was going to make a few points about Chiapas, but they'll hold.
>>
>> Hablando se entiende la gente.
>>
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Douglas Hinds, Dir. Gral. - CeDeCoR, A.C.
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil
(Center for Rural and Community Development,
a Mexican non-profit organization)
Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco; Loma Bonita, Oaxaca
& Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico
Mail: Apdo. Postal No. 171
Fortin de las Flores, Veracruz
94471 Mexico
Tel: 011 522 713 2888 (Direct at present)
U.S. Fax Mailbox (email linked) 630 300 0555
dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net,
dhinds@prodigy.net.mx
Cuentas arregladas, amistades largas.
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