> Recourse to "Science" is a political power play because science has
> credibility.
"Science" has a lot more credibility amoung those who are not
scientists.
On the other hand, science is just an accepted part of everyday life.
I am fortunate (I think) in that my own research is not threatening to
anybody's profits or supportive of anybody's product sales. So at least
sometimes I can have a conversation where nobody worries about "bias"
and we can focus on trying to understand the system.
> It is unfair to blame government policy, which at it's root seeks to protect
> the consumer and enforce honest labeling, for the political bullshit that
> humans generate at all levels.
Government policy does not exist separate from humans and their
political bullshit. Are you suggesting that I can blame humans but I
should exclude policy from my blame assignment scheme? I'm not
interested in blaming, I am interested in escaping the consequeces of
other people's decisions. I am entirely willing to live the natural
result of my own stupidity, because that is the very essence of
fairness. And it is apparently here where we disagree. I get the sense
that you are not willing to leave me be, but instead wish to inflict
things upon me which you think are for my own good.
Say I attribute to you all the finest qualities, and give you the
benefit of every doubt. So I believe that you are completely without
bias, and have no personal stake in the outcome other than your sincere
concern for my welfare. And that you are simply a philanthropic guy who
devotes his time to helping others. I'll even assume that you are right
and I am wrong, in some objectively measured way like lifespan. So if I
have it your way, I live to be 85 and if I have it my way I only make it
to 80.
It still doesn't work. The tradeoff of the extra 5 years in exchange
for my doing everything your way is a bad deal for me because I say it
is. I am the only logical yardstick for measuring value TO ME.
> The problem is that the links in the chain are humans, and they (we) are
> subject to spontaneous social behavior that facilitates the agglomeration of
> power by certain groups and individuals.
???
My point was that I prefer to keep the chain as short as possible, since
every link represents a multiplier less than one, where 1.0 represents
perfect. Assuming all multipliers are of equal value, a longer chain is
a guarantee of lower quality.
> > Technology happens faster than science.
>
> That is a profound statement. Technology is power over nature. The real
> actor here is power. It is not fair to blame science (that is, the practice
> of science). People exercise power over each other and over nature, using
> knowledge generated by science, as a tool.
I am not blaming science for anything. Knowledge does not cause
anything to happen.
Are you wanting to exercise power over me? Or can you accept a
prohibition on that behavior in exchange for my also not being allowed
to exercise power over you? YOu never know what I might think would be
"good" for you......heh, heh.... :)
> Trouble is, I don't believe most organic consumers care if those pears they
> are picking up were produced in Argentina or down the street, as long as
> they are legitimately organic. What I mean, is that most organic consumers
> are not that much different than "regular" consumers.
It is clear that we hang out in different places, then. But I am not
surprised that there are more than one distinct population of organic
shoppers. Anyway, assume that your experience is perfectly typical.
Therefore what? What is your interest in organic agriculture?
> PS: It would be interesting to do a market survey and see what is really
> going on in the minds of organic consumers.
Some people place vastly more value on surveys than others. I have no
doubt that they are useful for marketing, which doesn't interest me.
But then, I am not trying to sell anything.....
Loren
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