Tuesday, January 25, 2000, 12:01:05 AM, you wrote:
>>HL> There are, of course, other bacteria in milk that are not
>>HL> pathogenic. The most notable are the lactobacilli. These
>>HL> eventually overwhelm the pathogens and destroy them, which is why
>>HL> before refrigeration it used to be advisable to never drink milk
>>HL> which had begun to sour but to wait until it was fully sour before
>>Milk can also rot, usually due to anaerobic conditions.
HL> I would have said aerobic conditions, as aerobic conditions are
HL> where molds occur with milk products. Anaerobic conditions
HL> strongly favor the lactobacilli.
Out of the gut (i.e. in an air tight sealed container) my experience
has been that it will rot and smell BAD. The important point I see is
that different end products are created by different microorganisms
which are favored or not by the environmental conditions involved. I'm
sure you agree.
>>HL> Some researchers claim brucellosis never occurs on pasturage where
>>HL> the trace mineral deficiencies of copper, cobalt, manganese and
>>HL> possibly zinc have been adequately addressed, and with the near
>>HL> universal adoption of trace mineral salt blocks for pasture
>>HL> animals these deficiencies are less of a concern.
>>We are talking about a pathogen so aggressive it can penetrate intact
>>skin, that is NOT ubiquitous (found free) in the environment. It
>>should NEVER gain entrance to anyones internal state. While
>>nutritional deficiencies or the lack of them may affect immune
>>resistance, it would be a grave error to assume that industrial
>>agriculture or whatever saneters don't identify with is responsible
>>and that natchrul living is going to solve all. I wish it were, but it
>>ain't that way. And remember that wild herds are often decimated by
HL> While I'm aware that brucellosis does involve a microorganism,
A virulent pathogen not present in a healthy environment even in
limited proportions. Some things are only bad when their proportions
rise or are out of place. This seems to be strictly a pathogen,
antagonistic to animal (including human) life.
HL> I would be surprised if that is all it involves.
Of course there are other factors that can contribute to actually
contracting the disease. But sometimes a disease of this type - both
brucella and mycobacterium (i.e. tb) are intracellular organisms and
can actually live inside macrophages (part of the human immune
system). Most antibiotics don't penetrate cells. A person can become
infected but resist the disease for years - until his or her
resistance drops due to other factors brought on by any form of
HL> I'm no true believer in the micronutrient deficiency notions of
HL> immunity or its lack in regards to brucellosis, but I can imagine
HL> there is something to it.
So do I. But I would NOT assume any protection is going to be
forthcoming just because one is more natchrul than the other guy. The
"good" guys who "live right" can be very vulnerable, albeit less so.
(i.e. you get seriously ill but hold up better - maybe you don't die,
just become severely impeded, in the case of TB - which likes to
attack the spine, CNS, kidney etc.).
HL> As for wild herds, that is hardly any indication micronutrient
HL> deficiencies are not to be suspected.
There is a need for additional research.
HL> I'm probably as suspicious of the idea that turning the clock back
HL> to more natural times will cure all our ills as you are.
There's no going back. The road lies ahead.
HL> And I'm equally suspicious of the modern wisdoms that suggest they
HL> will solve all our problems and then they do not.
We can do a lot - probably enough, with time, by fully applying our
energies to these problems.
HL> I'm not convinced that modern mineral supplements or the state
HL> bangs (brucellosis) testing programs are a complete answer. I have
HL> some ideas of my own that I've been working on and perhaps making
HL> progress, and I'm my own devil's advocate concerning them too. I'd
HL> say we have a lot to learn still.
So there wasn't that mush separating us. The tests are needed if milk
is being consumed raw and no tight control of incoming animals is
exercised, or if the law requires it to protect the public.
Raw milk from healthy animals that's handled properly is more
nutritious and better flavored. It's the slack operators that hurt the
rest, since legislators are not going to want to take unnecessary
risks and who can blame them, when the norm is still to pasteurize and
forget the rest, although some may recognize that this is only the
next best thing, still far from the ideal.
>>You'd better know what controls were used and that the herd or cow
>>tested negative for brucella and tb, minimum.
HL> I'm acquainted with cattle type tuberculosis as Johnne's Disease,
HL> and I had the impression that it, like brucellosis, was primarily
HL> a cattle problem and not a human problem, at least not usually.
In the US there is a tight control on milk products, as you know. This
is not true in many countries. Here the major organism causing TB in
humans is mycobacterium bovis and it comes mainly from ingesting milk
products coming from the high percentage of infected cows being
milked. In the US, most TB is pulmonary since it is transmitted person
to person, lung to lung, through the air. Here many more cases of
extra-pulmonary TB are found, since the means of transmission is oral.
HL> For some reason I thought tuberculosis in people was a somewhat
HL> different disease, which as I understand, due to antibiotic
HL> resistance, it is a major health threat today having little to do
HL> with transmission via cows or milk.
Not true. It's true in the Us due to the controls exercised.
Mycobacterium Bovis is transmissible through milk and pasteurization
was designed with it in mind, since it's the most heat resistant of
the pathogens present in milk. TB is also very resistant to
antibiotics, usually requiring a cocktail of three or more toxic
medications for very long periods, often years.
The incidence of aids and the presence of TB as an opportunistic
disease, as well as increased resistance to treatment, has focused
renewed attention on the theme, which is in itself positive if it
leads to an increased research effort.
HL> Perhaps you know some things I don't.
I sure hope so. and vice versa.
HL> I sure don't know everything,
HL> and sometimes I hardly know anything.
Well, I wouldn't say that.
These interchanges should help all concerned to amplify his/her
knowledge base (and by no means do I feel my data is complete or not
subject to revision).
>>HL> She would break the law if she sold it, and by aiding and abetting
>>HL> her you too would break the law.
>>HL> To say, " This is a democratic society. If you don't like the law,
>>HL> change it." is silly.
>>I think it's sillier to stand by and say that. If you don't control
>>the law, the law controls you.
HL> Yes. Laws are not actually what controls people. It is an illusion
HL> to think so.
It is an illusion to think that they have no effect, or that each
citizen doesn't have something to say (and maybe do) about it.
HL> People either control themselves and whatever laws they may have,
HL> or they depend on the law for control and find it imposed on them
HL> against their wills and better judgments.
The will of the majority is supposedly implemented through a
"representative" minority of elected and appointed by the former)
public officials. No true democracy is possible in populations of more
than maybe 100 (i.e. a town meeting) and standards are needed. So is
your (and every thinking person's) input - otherwise the criticism is
just harping. How do you expect change to occur?
HL> This is why a society like we have in America today with its
HL> abundant plethora of laws is such a lawless society in terms of
HL> willing adherence.
You're not exactly in Beruit or Sarajevo or ...
In the US, both everything and nothing is true. Families are not
cohesive as a rule. Traditions have been discarded or lost with no
real replacement in sight. Nothing is sacred and everything has a
price. That's what I see when I cross the border: Wallmarts and
pawnshops - a dichotomy. Nothing is cheap now and there are more
beggars in McAllen than in Reynosa (on the Mexican side). A mediocre
and homogenized culture with standards resulting from an imperfect
process is the present state of affairs - but there are worse
situations elsewhere (and better ones too).
But the highways and libraries are great. And lot of exciting and
convenient things are developing if you know where to look. A lot of
long standing causes get popularized and degraded but still become
re-enforced, but it's necessary to defend and advance those gains.
It's a mixed bag and is pulling the whole world along. We have to be
sure that we too do a little pulling along, by gaining the forefront
and shining a bright light.
HL> I think you would find that in times and places where people took
HL> moral and social imperatives more to heart and felt responsible
HL> for upholding the few laws they had that society was much more
HL> truly lawful as the law was controlled by citizens rather than the
HL> other way around.
HL> What I meant, however, is that it is silly to think it is easy to
HL> change laws and even sillier to think that merely by changing a
HL> law or two you have accomplished something really meaningful. What
HL> is really needed is getting to the roots and motivation of this
HL> law stuff and motivating people to exercise individual
HL> responsibility instead of relying on some law and its enforcement
HL> to make their lives ideal.
Correct. But it's going to be an interactive process. A little respect
and reflection can go a long way and we are proving that.
>>HL> It takes single-minded dedication and years of work to have any
>>HL> effect on laws and the lone citizen is bucking the huge finances
>>HL> and vested interests of the dairy processing industry.
>>Whatever it takes. Why the copout? You have truth on your side? What
>>more do you need? Make it count!
HL> Having already invested years of work, I don't view my efforts as
L> a copout. Nor am I advocating apathy in any of its many forms. I
HL> just think a bracing draft of reality is desireable rather than
HL> feelgood plattitudes of how democratic and fair everything is.
Precisely because things are not democratic or fair, input and action
is needed on the part of informed and concerned parties.
>>HL> Our current democratic society is really a dictatorship of
>>HL> whatever vested interests get their candidates into office.
>>It's a balance of powers. Empower *your* interests. Unite with
>>others and broadcast your ideals. The system must be perfected.
HL> You're doggone right. It needs a lot of "perfecting" because there
HL> is an enormous imbalance of powers as long as the electorate
HL> sleeps and vested interest money is funneled into politicians'
This needs to be pointed out AND coupled with viable solutions that
are followed up on.
>>HL> One's vote doesn't amount to a cup of thin bean soup.
>>Make it count.
HL> Easier said than done.
HL> But I agree to the point that I was the Green Party
HL> candidate for Georgia Secretary of Agriculture in '98.
Good job. What came of it? How hard would it be to gain control of (or
a foothold) in one of the local parties that stands a chance to win
and would support your platform? Don't stop now.
>>HL> With all the laws we have it is no wonder we in the US have such a
>>HL> highly criminalized society and the highest per capita prison
>>HL> populations on earth.
>>It ain't perfect. Meaning it will take a little work
HL> Not quite correct. It will take enormous work. But you are quite right to
HL> think it is worth it.
My comment was obviously and intentionally an understatement.
>>HL> Shades of Nazi Germany.
HL> Maybe you ain't visited many jails recently or aren't aware that
HL> most of the people who were in Himmler's camps were not Jews there
HL> awaiting extermination but were Germans rounded up for slave
HL> labor, altogether similar to our current prison industry
The south has long been famous for its chain gangs.
HL> Privitizing prisons is one of the better growth industries in
HL> America today, as many a Wall Street investor could tell you.
Sounds like a good topic for 60 minutes or a PBS news feature
(Lederer Report? - or whatever's currently viewed out there).
HL> You'll be better off not sticking your head in the sand on this
HL> one, brother.
That's why I still subscribe to these lists, good buddy.
>>HL> Things are bad enough already and I wouldn't want to see them get
>>HL> any worse.
>>Nothing stands still and it depends on the effort made. Make yours
HL> As I agree above, so here too. One doesn't do these things alone.
HL> If I wake you up or you wake me up it is a start. Then we can take
HL> this up with others, and they with still others. It's a lengthy,
HL> dilligent process, that perhaps the internet facillitates. Not
HL> easy. But you're right to accept it as necessary.
Count me in. But if we expect a response we need a program.
This interchange coincides with a website / email list / data base
capacity I just gained access to, thanks to the efforts of another
valuable, long time sanet contributor. I offer to follow up on that
capacity but NOT as an area simply for discussion, but discussion with
the disposition to follow up with concrete, well defined and
constructive actions focused in specific projects, if the conditions
each requires for his or her participation are met.
There will be differences of opinion, and mechanisms must be developed
for handling that. In general terms, I'd say that different projects
will be supported by those interested and in agreement with the means
and goals of the project chosen to participate in. You or I (for
instance) might join forces on some issues and not on others, leaving
the door open for others that shared the same perceptions to
contribute their efforts or not. (No blanket coincidence needed).
The single blanket concept would be: Socially and Ecologically
Responsible Agriculture - SERA (or SERÁ for those whose email client
is set to see accents, meaning "It Will Be" in Spanish).
>>HL> On the other hand, I run a CSA with a 6 acre market garden and we
>>HL> have on the farm one of those jersey milk cows that turns hay into
>>HL> compost for my vegetables.
>>There you go. You're home free. Not bound by the above.
HL> Well, sort of. The above "one size fits all" philosophy of
HL> government still prevails and must be dealt with closer to its
HL> sources, however.
This same standardization (an institutionalization of mediocrity,
often by reasons that favor the convenience of industrialized
operation), is also seen in the loss of diversification on the
ecological and agricultural fronts. The idea we've promoted is "The
Extra Care Shows" (where show can be taste. This is in line with you
own stance on BD).
Industrialization is just using mechanized equipment and standardized
procedures, the problem is that the wrong kind of equipment,
procedures and concepts have put to much distance between people and
their source of sustenance, the biological world; and in that gap many
pathological things can happen - and are.
Granted that too many of those able and who have wanted to make
positive contributions regarding social issues have become
disillusioned or alienated with the process, the question is "can this
be done?", or is it necessary to "look for a safe haven" or "join the current
system". I believe that yes is the probable answer to the first
question and that the haven can be more tightly linked (and can drive)
the system than is currently being done - and it IS being done, to
some degree. "The System" is not monolithic or static, it was
"created" and is constantly being recreated.
>>The law can be changed - it already has, but for the worse. The
>>reason for that can be traced to zoonosis from raw milk found in the
>>states that permitted the sale of it. But if the certification
>>process was done correctly, there'd be no reason for the milk to
>>transmit disease. Somebody slacked off and boom - the door was
>>HL> All the more reason to check out the CSA concept of fresh,
>>local, HL> in season food supplies.
>>Hope this is taken constructively. The garden of Eden is yet to be
>>created, and call it what you will, someone will have to do it and
>>better know what he's doing. You know a lot but don't stop there.
HL> If I was the kind to stop here I'd never have gotten here. It is
HL> clear to me I've only pried the door open a crack.
HL> Warmest regards,
HL> Hugh Lovel
You've understtod my comments and taken them super-constructively,
enough so that maybe there will be a follow up to this, perhaps
I do have to do a few things on down the road and have been trying to
get things together here enough here to be able to leave for a few
days, in which case I may be off line - either from today on or
beginning later in the week.
Douglas Hinds, - CeDeCoR, A.C.
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, Asociacion Civil
(Center for Rural and Community Development,
a Mexican non-profit organization)
Cordoba, Veracruz; Cd. Guzman, Jalisco & Reynosa, Tamaulipas Mexico
Mail: Apdo. Postal No. 171
Fortin de las Flores, Veracruz
Tel: 011 522 713 2888 (Direct at present)
U.S. Fax Mailbox (email linked) 630 300 0555
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