Hello, I farm in South Africa and read with interest the postings on Sanet.
I am the chair of the Organic Agricultural Association of SA(OAASA) and we
are busy setting/establishing standards and regulations for organics. Can
anyone give reasons why UREA is not allowed as an input? This is to reply to
cattle farmers who want it included as an allowable input. Many thanks,
James Moffett, Kirklington Organic Farm, Free State, South Africa.
-----Original Message-----
From: sanet-mg-digest <owner-sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu>
To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu <sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu>
Date: Sunday, January 23, 2000 1:49 AM
Subject: sanet-mg-digest V1 #1556
>
>sanet-mg-digest Saturday, January 22 2000 Volume 01 : Number 1556
>
>
>
>In this issue:
>
> Re: soybeans deplete soil?
> "grass fed better'n grain fed"
> Wheaties/grain prices
> Re: soybeans deplete soil?
> Vit B12/Dr. Campbell/Ms Fallon
> Re: vitamin B12
> Re: soybeans deplete soil?
> Re: soybeans deplete soil
> farmers' market workshop
> Re: SCIENTISTS PROVE SUPERIOR NUTRITIVE VALUE OF ORGANIC FOOD
>
>See the end of the digest for information about sanet-mg-digest.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:49:22 -0600
>From: "Laura K. Paine" <lkpaine@facstaff.wisc.edu>
>Subject: Re: soybeans deplete soil?
>
>Hello Betsy and everyone,
>
>I don't know of any data that will support the contention that conventional
>soybeans deplete soil nitrogen. Both organic and conventional soybeans,
>properly innoculated, will fix nitrogen for a net gain in the soil. Most
>recommendations suggest that you can credit soybeans for about 40 pounds of
>N/acre/season of growth.
>
>Kindest regards,
>
>Laura
>
>PS. (I think I've just doubled my annual posting to SANET with this second
>post today!)
>
>At 11:02 AM 1/22/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>>Hi everyone -
>>
>>a friend told me the other day that conventionally grown soybeans
>>deplete soil nitrogen. Do inoculated organically grown soybeans create a
>>net gain of soil nitrogen, like legume cover crops? Any input
>>appreciated. His argument was that grass-fed livestock was easier on
>>land while requiring fewer inputs than any conventionally grown field
>>crop, and of course I wondered if that was still the case for organics.
>>
>>
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>>
>Laura Paine
>Crops and Soils Agent
>Columbia County Agriculture Center
>120 West Conant Street
>PO Box 567
>Portage, WI 53901-0567
>608/742-9680
>FAX: 608/742-9862
>laura.paine@ces.uwex.edu
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:51:28 -0800
>From: William Evans <williamevans@home.com>
>Subject: "grass fed better'n grain fed"
>
> His premise is correct.
> " His argument was that grass-fed livestock was easier on
>land while requiring fewer inputs than any conventionally grown field
>crop,"
>.. short and sassy..."grass fed better'n grain fed"
>maybe?
>
>"a friend told me the other day that conventionally grown soybeans
>deplete soil nitrogen.
>
> off the cuff opinion...
>First... N is added to the soil as fertilizer..., by man/
>animals,plants...
> in many forms..
> so " soil N" is kinda meaningless term w/o some conotation by the
>author.
> So , N fluctuates to some degree w/ man's additions of IT to cropland.
> It also varies due to many biological processes...
> .. and the demands on this supply by soil processes.
> ...ANd in a strict sense the porosity of the soil has a great deAL of
>influence
> on the amount of gaseous N in the ' soil air'.
>
> Inoculated beans can help bolster the N supply, but only if adequate
>measures
> of fertility are in store.... to include elemental deficienceies
>/excesses-lack of
>one or many elemnts , whether not in supply,
> or in supply -just not available...
>...can hinder N- fixing by rhizobium type symbiotic bac.
>bill evans
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:11:01 -0800
>From: Misha <mgs23@pacbell.net>
>Subject: Wheaties/grain prices
>
>Howdy, all--
>
>I'm responding to the original question that David Yudkin posed:
>
>>Today in a meeting with Congressman Earl Blumenaur about farming and free
>>trade, I said that farmers get 5¢ for raising the wheat that goes into a
box
>>of Wheaties while Tiger Woods gets 10¢. It really stopped the congressman,
he
>>challenged me as to were I got that fact. I thought it came from sanet
though
>>I couldn't find it in the archives. Has anyone else heard this figure and
>>know were it came from?
>
>I can't locate anything like that. But here are some statistics from
>the USDA 1998 /Agriculture Fact Book/ that are related to this
>question.
>
>Check out this page of the fact book:
>http://www.usda.gov/news/pubs/fbook98/ch1d.htm
>
>It details the Farm-to-Retail Price Spread for various commodity
>types. A table shows "Farm value as a percentage of retail price for
>domestically produced foods, 1987 and 1997."
>
>In 1997 the farm value, or payment for the raw product, averaged 23
>percent of the retail cost (23 cents on the dollar), with the other
>77 percent (the farm-retail price spread) covering
>beyond-the-farmgate economic activity.
>
>However there is much variation in different farm commodities. In the
>table, it shows farm value of cereal and bakery goods standing at 7
>percent in 1997. Compared to, for instance, 37 percent for meats and
>21 percent for produce and fats and oils. (Side note: this tells you
>something about why Americans are leaning toward the obese, when fat
>farmers make more than grain farmers...but I digress. :^) Thus you
>can see how much diversity the averaged figure of 23 cents on the
>dollar obscures.
>
>This doesn't answer David's question directly. But one can
>extrapolate from the above figures that for a $3.00 box of breakfast
>cereal product, with a 7 percent farm-retail price spread,
>approximately 21 cents of the consumer price is going directly to
>"the farmer."
>
>Advertising and "other costs" total 6 cents on the dollar, as per the
>dollar cost breakdown appearing here:
>http://www.usda.gov/news/pubs/fbook98/ch1b.htm
>
>Having said all this, I think David's example can put these issues
>into context in a clear and concrete way for consumers. And we need
>to dig up solid data to support such wonderfully teachable examples.
>
>It would be intriguing to learn more about what the product promotion
>fees are that someone like Tiger Woods in fact receives. There's an
>interesting project for an enterprising student.
>
>
>peace
>mish
>
>
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Michele Gale-Sinex
>
>Home office: 415-504-6474 (504-MISH)
>Home office fax: Same as above, phone first for enabling
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Don't forget that most men would rather protect the possibility of
>becoming rich than face the reality of being poor. --John Dickinson
>(in the musical /1776/)
>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 11:25:12 -0800
>From: Marcie Rosenzweig <fullcircle@jps.net>
>Subject: Re: soybeans deplete soil?
>
>Betsy,
>
>Here's a simple farmer's (me) understanding of this.
>
>Anytime you remove crop from the soil, you deplete nutrients, nitrogen
>being only one. Seeds are especially rich in nitrogen (protein), so when
>you harvest a soy crop, whether conventionally grown or organically grown
>with innoculant, you are removing nitrogen from the soil. Because legumous
>crops, especially if they are innoculated, fix nitrogen from the air, the
>deficit is less than say, corn, which doesn't fix nitrogen. But, it's still
>a net loss.
>
>Legumous cover crops add nitrogen because they are totally returned to the
>soil where bacteria release the fixed nitrogen as the nodules die. Nothing
>is removed. Net gain of N (OK don't go into carbon cycle here)
>
>Your friend with the critters is setting up a straw man argument. His
>critters remove crop -grass- from the land along with the nutrients the
>soil used to produce that crop. He harvests his secondary crop -critter
>flesh(protein)- thus removing those nutrients from where they originated.
>The fact that his critters return some of those nutrients while they are
>grazing is moot since the form of the nutrients is changed and only those
>not used to produce flesh(protein) are returned. I suspect he didn't
>mention soil compaction either...
>
>Marcie
>
>
>Marcie A. Rosenzweig
>Full Circle Organic Farm
>Auburn, CA
>
>
>
>To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 13:16:24 -0600
>From: Guillermo Romero <romerog@Prodigy.Net.mx>
>Subject: Vit B12/Dr. Campbell/Ms Fallon
>
>In response to the series of posts about Vit B12 , Vegan diets and Organic
food, in both the SANET and BD-Now lists, Ms. Sally Fallon (co-author of
Nourishing Traditions) wrote:
>
>*****************************
>
>Fwd: Re: Sally Fallon's/ organic and nutrition
>
>
by Allan Balliett
>
> 21
January 2000 21:20 UTC
>
>
>
>Special to BD Now!
>
>>Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 14:51:12 EST
>>Subject: Re: Sally Fallon's/ organic and nutrition
>>
>>B12 Debate
>>
>>There is a form of B12 in plant foods but it is not available to humans
and
>>some researchers believe that this B12 actually blocks the uptake of the
>>animal form.
>>
>>How do we know that B12 in plants is not absorbed. Consider the rabbits
>>who
>>eat plant foods all day long. Do they absorb the B12 from the plants? No
>>they do not. To get their B12, the eat fermented rabbit pellets (I. e.
>>their
>>own excrement.)
>>
>>Human groups who are largely vegetarian get their B12 from insects--either
>>small insects in their food (which can makeup as much as 10% of the food)
>>or
>>larger insects they deliberately catch and eat.
>>
>>Vegans risk creating a lot of negative karma for themselves with the
blithe
>>assurance that we can get B12 from plant food. The consequences of B12
>>deficiency are very tragic. By the way, the article they quoted from was
>>written by Stephen Byrnes who has treated many former vegetarians who
>>brought
>>themselves to the point of death on a vegan diet. Unfortunately, once the
>>damage from B12 deficiency goes too far, a complete recovery is not
>>possible.
>>
>>Colin Campbell is a complete fool who makes claims for his China study
that
>>are not true, and who is advocating a vegan death diet for growing
>>children.
>>
>>Sally Fallon
>
>********************
>
>I have invited Dr. Colin Campbell from the Division of Nutritional Science
at Cornell University to participate in this discussion, if he chooses to do
so, I will be glad to post his views to the list.
>
>Regards
>
>Guillermo Romero Ibarrola
>Comala, Colima, MEXICO
><romerog@Prodigy.Net.mx>
>
>
>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 14:26:58 -0600
>From: "mikerichardson" <mikerichardson@multipro.com>
>Subject: Re: vitamin B12
>
>Thank you Klaus, for the very long but informative post on B12. Another
>reason that I feel good about being an omnivore type human. As you and
>others have stated, all things in moderation, with sufficient variety.
>
>Son of Richard
>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 12:36:47 -0800
>From: "Joel B. Gruver" <jgruver@principia.edu>
>Subject: Re: soybeans deplete soil?
>
>Hello to all...
>
>There are a number of longterm cropping system studies that have shown that
>the inclusion of soybeans in a cropping system can result in loss of soil
>organic matter... soybeans are clearly a valuable part of many crop
>rotations in term of profitability, breaking of pest cycles, reduced
>fertility needs, provision of N for subsequent crops... etc.. nevertheless,
>studies clearly show that multiple years of soybeans combined with
>intensive tillage often results in depletion of soil organic matter... Soil
>organic matter depletion associated with soybeans seems to be related to
>the low crop residue return by soybeans and the rapid rate of decomposition
>of soybean residues.
>
>If a crop contributes to the loss of total soil organic matter, than the
>crop is causing the loss of soil N even if its "annual nitrogen budget"
>shows a net gain.
>
>Joel
>
>
>
>
>
>Joel Gruver
>Visiting Faculty
>Principia College
>Elsah, Illinois 62028
>(618) 374 - 5289
>jgruver@principia.edu
>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 15:59:18 -0600
>From: "mikerichardson" <mikerichardson@multipro.com>
>Subject: Re: soybeans deplete soil
>
>Joel's observation is correct. However, the key statement that he made
>
>"nevertheless, studies clearly show that multiple years of soybeans
>combined with intensive tillage often results in depletion of soil organic
>matter... "
>
>should be explored further before making the incredibly useful and
>versitile soybean a bad seed. The key words are "multiple years" and "
>intensive tillage."
>
>When used in a rotation with other crops, especially ones that can add
>organic matter to soil, the negative effects of soybeans are mitigated or
>negligible. Also, when using reduced tillage, no-till, or combinations of
>conservation tillage and conventional tillage, again soybeans do very
>little or no harm to long term soil organic content.
>
>Mono culture of ANY farm crop can have deliterious effects on soil quality,
>not to mention insect and disease build up. Intensive tillage year after
>year also has tremendous negative effects on soil quality and productivity.
>
>The value of soybeans to the farm economy and to the public good are quite
>far and above the cost to soil organic matter, provided good farming
>conservation methods and management are applied.
>
>Son of Richard
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 17:00:45 -0500
>From: Jeff Ishee <farmsted@cfw.com>
>Subject: farmers' market workshop
>
>Apologies for cross-posting.
>***************************************************
>
> Anyone in the Mid-Atlantic region involved in agricultural direct
>marketing will certainly want to check out the Virginia / DC Farmers'
>Market Workshop. Scheduled for March 18, 2000 in the beautiful
>Shenandoah Valley of Virginia, the event is being co-sponsored by VA
>Cooperative Extension, the VA Farmers Direct Marketing Association, and
>the Staunton/Augusta Farmers' Market.
> A new website has just been posted at:
>
>http://www.marketfarm.homestead.com/home.html
>
> Featured speakers include: Andy Lee, Joel Salatin, Jeff Ishee, Ann
>Yonkers, Bernadine Prince, Emmitt Snead, Harry Crosby, Matt Cauley, and
>many others.
> Virginia Commissioner of Agriculture Carlton Courter will address the
>workshop on the importance of public farmers' markets to small farm
>operations.
> For more information, contact:
> VA / DC Farmers' Market Workshop
> Registration Coordinator
> P.O. Box 52
> Middlebrook, VA 24459
> (540) 886-9394
> farmsted@cfw.com
>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 17:26:33 -0500
>From: Dave Miller <recycler@eclipse.net>
>Subject: Re: SCIENTISTS PROVE SUPERIOR NUTRITIVE VALUE OF ORGANIC FOOD
>
>Wytze,
>
>Can you provide backround to the Rutgers food study, ie. year and author
>or researcher. Was it at Cook, the ag school? Could you ask Jan M.J.
>Storms where the data came from? Greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>recycler dave
>
>Drum In The New Century and Millenium!
>_______________________________________
>«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»
>¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
>Recycler Dave, Judy, Lucky, Charm, Shush
>
>A remodeler, drummer, farmer, soapmaker
>
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>------------------------------
>
>End of sanet-mg-digest V1 #1556
>*******************************
>
>
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