> On Mon, 8 Nov 1999 07:33:36 -0800, Sal wrote:
> >I don't have to let anyone come and check me and decide if I am organic
> >enough. I grow by the rules and don't need any big brother watching over
> >. if you think I am lying get a searchwarrent convince a judge you have
> >reason to look. this is America I don't have to prove I am not guilty
> >year year after year. you don't ask that of chemical grower why pick on
> >why you forcing us to play these games is wrong. in some states you pay
> >in some states you pay 2000 dollars for the same verification whets is
> >about that. why do I pay more in Ca. than Ky. what is far about that.
> >the Fed. gov. and state force me to pay more here than in KY.
I thought the whole idea for this was because every state was different and
every one looked at organic different and this law was to level the playing
> >the fairness of the same prices for the same thing ? where is my robe of
> >innocence why am I guilty and have to pay to prove I am telling the truth
> >over and over again just because the year changes.
> What does a "robe of innocence" have to do with anything? We are
> talking about regulation within the *commercial* sphere, not a criminal
> And while we're at it, what ever led you to expect that regulation
> would be uniform (you call it "fair") from state to state, or even town
> to town? That sort of variation is precisely what localized (rather
> than federal) control is all about. This is America, and there is
> absolutely nothing preventing you from moving to Kentucky if you find
> the regulatory and administrative environment in California so onerous.
..oh the old "love it or leave it "I was wondering when that argument was
going to come up.
the reason I brought up that fact that it is a lot cheaper in some states
because one reason the state of Ca. gave for letting farmers use methyl
bromine and extend its use even though it was proven a ozone killer was
because they feel that farmers in some state still allow it and it would put
ca. farmers at a big disadvantage so I felt that the fact that they are so
much higher on organic growers than any other state may put ca. organic
growers at disadvantage. see my point.
> I've built and renovated several houses over the years, and what do you
> know --- there's variation in building codes, permit requirements, fee
> structure, and administrative burden from place to place. Big deal.
> I've also done a major renovation in a jurisdiction where there is no
> code at all or even any requirement to get a permit. I've always built
> to code (actually, way better than code). I *know* that I build better
> than code, but I don't run around being a cry-baby about permits, fees,
> and building inspections in those places where they are required.
what do you do now?
> Regulations, inspections, permits, fees, and paperwork are absolutely
> normal in the commercial sphere. If you're selling food, you're in the
> commercial sphere, and you should *expect* regulation.
sounds like that's how you make your living. what do you do now are you one
of those paying for this or one of those getting my money from this? what
do you do now?
it is not normal to over regulate over inspect and over fee and paper work
it is too much now
I expect fairness even in the commercial sphere
are you a small grower also do you really think we should just shut up here
I thought I was paying attention to a real threat to my survival.
> Organic farmers, especially small growers, would do far better to stop
> moaning about organic certification --- which can help their businesses
> --- and start paying attention to the REAL threats to their survival.
no one is moaning it may sound like it but this is a time when if we don't
talk up they will beat us down. I don't expect unfair regulation and want
to do something to stop it and I find the only way a little guy can do
anything is to make it known what is going on. I don't have enough money to
spend a night in the white house or buy a vote so I guess I will just moan
and grown at the unfairness of it all. I guess as long as it is unfair I
will moan. I will moan every time feel it . I don't expect unfair unneeded
regulations. what do u do for a living?
> a) the looming application of HACCP requirements to *all* produce
> growers, regardless of size.
> b) the possible application of migrant labor laws to "apprentices /
> interns" on organic farms.
> c) the rapid disappearance of small processing plants and
> If you're an organic produce grower on this list and you *don't* know
> about HACCP (Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points) I suggest you
> find out sooner rather than later. It *will* affect your operation
> within a few years, maybe a few months. It is a major food safety issue
> (far more important than chemical residues in terms of the number of
> acute illnesses). It can shut you down. The application of HACCP
> requirements to produce will almost certainly be nationwide.
> State application of migrant labor laws to apprentices/interns has
> already put one vegetable farm out of business. There may be more.
> Small scale processing is one of the best ways for the small grower to
> add value to crops. Unfortunately, it is getting harder and harder to
> find places who will do this work for you. Many slaughterhouses now set
> minimum-kill requirements far in excess of what small growers are able
> to bring forward --- 5000 turkeys, for example.
> Energy spent complaining is far better applied to a serious and
> dispassionate analysis of the opportunities and threats facing the
> business. Coupled with honest analysis of strengths and weaknesses,
> such study can make the difference between success and failure. Where
> strengths overlap an opportunity, there is the potential for
> substantial profit. Where weaknesses overlap a threat, there is a
> serious problem.
> HACCP and other potential regulations *are* a substantial threat,
> especially for the small grower. In that environment, reactive (as
> opposed to adaptive) attitudes towards regulation would seem to be a
> significant weakness with the potential to undermine survivability.
thank you for the warning. what ever you do you seem to be on the inside
and I do thank you for pointing out this. to me it seems like now is the
time to stop the fed. law because now is the time they are splitting the
pot. cutting up my money picking my pocket etc. I guess when they dump
that other stuff on me I guess I will moan and grown about that too.
nothing else we can do -we should expect regulations and more regulations
and more regulations and more regulations tell the small are gone and only
the big important players are around. regulated out of business. what do u
what do you do now for a living that u know so much about farming and
regulations that we should expect.
I farm I am one of those that have to live by these new laws and I feel it
getting worse and worse and you only pointed that out to me more. boss you
around that all they do and get paid for that. nice work if you can get it.
guess the real money is in regulation not farming.
I pay so I get to moan.
I do all this stuff so I get to tell the story of how it is not fair.>
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