Who owns this list? Who decides whether or not a list that carries the name
sustainable agriculture is a place to discuss sustainable agriculture, in
all of its dimensions, or is limited to discussion of the physical
dimensions of sustainable agriculture - thereby excluding its social and
ecological (i.e. spiritual) dimensions?
Perhaps there should be another list for those who wish to discuss only the
physical dimensions of sustainability.
John Ikerd
-----Original Message-----
From: Lon J. Rombough [mailto:lonrom@hevanet.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 4:55 PM
To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Nature Spirit (was: definitely related)
I've been to places like Findhorn and have seen the
connection between the
spiritual and the physical world, so while I don't dispute
the need for
discussing all this, it would seem fitting that the
philosophical side might
be better covered in a separate list and leave this list for
the physical
side. The spiritual side makes for some fascinating
discoveries, but I think
the people on this list probably joined it more for the
physical aspects
that they can apply in their growing practices.
In brief, how about starting a new list and let this one go
back to it's
basic purpose.
----------
>From: "Ikerd, John E." <IkerdJ@missouri.edu>
>To: "'Wilson, Dale'" <WILSONDO@phibred.com>,
sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
>Subject: RE: Nature Spirit (was: definitely related)
>Date: Tue, Aug 31, 1999, 1:17 PM
>
>Dale
>
>Some brief responses below.
>
>John Ikerd
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wilson, Dale [mailto:WILSONDO@phibred.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:36 AM
> To: sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu
> Cc: 'Ikerd, John E.'
> Subject: Nature Spirit (was: definitely related)
>
> John,
>
> > Spirituality and religion are not the same things -
> > although we are not likely to have a discussion of one
> > without the other. To me, spirituality simply means a
> > felt need to be in harmony with some higher order of
>things.
>
> IMO, "spirituality" in the environmentalist community is
a
>derivative of
> christianity, with a vaguley defined Telos, Entelechy or
>Universal-Mind-Soul
> in the place of God.
>
> I suspect for some this true and for others it's not.
>
> Despite the "deep ecologists" over in the corner, most
> of what I hear on Sanet seems to be part of the general
>(primarily social)
> progressive vision of the enlightenment, a christian
>derivative. Values
> like equity, freedom, and health dominate the discussion.
>It seems quite
> anthropocentric.
>
> Anthropocentricity (at least in the sense of belief that
>humans are special) does not exclude legitimate concern for
other species
>nor for other elements of the natural environment.
>
>
> > We have to conform to some higher order of things
rather
> > than bend and twist nature to things to fit every whim.
>
> This is a statement of the natural law ethics of the
>movement. The "higher
> order of things" is the putative guiding hand of Nature
(God
>substitute),
> and the law is written in the biosphere as opposed to
stone
>tablets. The
> difficulty IMO, is that reading the "Law" is difficult in
>practice, and many
> people do so through the lense of idiosyncratic social
>theory. This
> contributes to the anthropocentricity.
>
> Important tasks frequently are quite challenging. Lots
of
>different approaches may be worthy of pursuit.
>
> > Sustainability ultimately is about intergenerational
>equity -
> > to meet the needs of the present while leaving equal or
>better
> > opportunities for the future.
>
> YES! THAT, is a good definition of sustainability. But
it
>still isn't a big
> help in the exegesis of natural law.
>
> The fact that it's neither simple nor easy doesn't mean
that
>it not worth doing.
>
> > Most seem to agree that sustainable systems must be
> > economically viable, ecologically sound, and socially
> > responsible.
>
> Everybody from the heads of Dupont and Monsanto on down
>would agree with
> that statement. The devil is in the details, and it
depends
>on how you
> interpret natural law, and whether you buy into the
concept
>of natural law.
>
> Right. Look for evidence of spirituality as an indicator
of
>whether a "sustainable agriculture" program actually
addresses
>sustainability or is instead an advertising or public
relations strategy.
>
> > We are concerned about ecological "sustainability" only
if
>we
> > have some felt need to live in harmony with some higher
>order
> > of things - if we are spiritual.
>
> What about physicalists (those who do not believe in the
>existence of a
> "higher order") but nevertheless do care?
>
> I don't know why they would care about something in which
>they have no individual or shared interest unless they
believed that there
>was some other legitimate reason - something beyond
themselves and each
>other, i.e. some higher order - that provides with an
incentive or
>responsibility to caring.
>
> > If we do not believe in a higher order, or do not feel
a
>need
> > to find harmony with it, there is no logical reason to
be
> > concerned about whether or not people thousands of
years
>from now
> > will have opportunities equal to or better than we have
>today.
>
> Are you familiar with E.O. Wilson's view that altruism is
>instinctive, honed
> by group selection? He is a physicalist and former
>evangelical christian.
> Can ethics derived from apparent evolution of altruism
>(another reading of
> nature) form a basis for sustainability
(intergenerational
>sense)?
>
> I believe that true altruism is a product of
spirituality,
>regardless of how it is logically derived or has culturally
evolved.
>
>
> Dale
>
>
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