Sometimes it's appropriate to wax poetic. You are right that sex is often abused
and commercialized. The important part is the motivation and it's hard to fault love.
But I was just having a little fun with the theme. The point being that reproduction,
genetics, sex and love are possible when founded on tissues, organs and organisms.
>Trying to derive some threshold of the
>"natural" beyond which it is evil to trespass will get you in trouble.
Not when my response is intuitive - how can I get in trouble if I am being true to
my own nature? How can you be sure no threshold exists? To me it's palpable.
>When we put shoot and tassel bags on thousands of corn
>lines and self them for six generations, how natural is that? How much love
>do you think is involved in that?
I have consistently come out in favor of appropriate human intervention on the
one hand and have questioned the methodology behind GMO's on the other.
Homeostasis is a good paradigm. The organism (or cell) is doing this internally.
It might be said that if the cell (or organism) adapts (doesn't die) then that's proof
that adaptation has occurred. However, the conditions were externally imposed
and this raises questions that don't come into play when bagging - the integrity
of the cell isn't being violated, since the cell itself is going to receive or not
whatever pollen gets to it. (Bagging can be used to prevent all but a select
pollen source, not only when forcing self pollination, which can't be good - it's
redundant and depriving - an end to evolution and perhaps to life itself).
Manipulation of a cell is not the same as manipulating the environment -
something lives inside the cell. When we "manipulate" the environment in
destructive ways, this affects others and there must be accountability.
Environments are shared, whereas cells are more autonomous, private.
The position a given individual takes on this subject is dependent to a great degree
on his or her assumptions, on his or her predisposition and a lot of factors come
into play. Your logic has foundation but to my mind has detached itself from
elements that are to me, fundamental. But the only unequivocal conclusion that
can be reached at this point is that we are dealing with a delicate matter - the
roots of life itself, all the answers aren't all in yet. There is a clear and present
potential for abuse that is real to many people. I believe that Pioneer would do
well to minimize it's investment in recombinant biotech let Monsanto walk that
path alone, publicly. Pioneer could be the one that believes in traditional seed
breeding technology and many users would support and adhere to that.
>Modernity is a wild beast running at top speed.
That is exactly the problem.
>I don't understand what exactly you think is a joke.
>> (Of course I just ate 2 K of seedling mangos - but then I hadn't
>> eaten all day. Now I'm chomping on some guamuchiles NEVER
>> grafted as I type this).
These mangos speak for themselves. The joke is that they aren't exported to
the US, where importers ask for Tommy Atkins, Haden, Kent, Keitt, Ataulfo and
other varieties that are generally (99.9%) grafted - but by custom, not necessity.
Not enough real food, evolution based, is available in the US and in comparison,
the GMO's are feeble attempts to construct something special that misses the
mark because the wrong variables were considered and the right ones weren't.
>I wish I had a mango right now, but I sure wouldn't eat 2 kg at one time ;-)
The seedling mangos I was eating:
While both their taste and effect is an intense experience, there's not a lot of
meat on them. I didn't weigh them but the 2 Kg includes seed and skin I am
buying a box (near 60 lb for this last box) a week. I may not finish it but if I were
to buy by the kilo the price would be much higher per kilo, it would take time
to select them and I am ordering the box which is put aside for me on arrival.
There is no doubt that an important amount of insight comes from eating these
and other fruits with which I feel I share common roots. There's a few things
I don't like about Cd. Guzman but their outdoor market is outstanding - very
few in Mexico (or perhaps anywhere) come close to it. (Actually, it began
as an outdoor market - just as the world began as an outdoor world. As it
stands the market is no under one roof - but most stands have metal fronts
that roll up and down).
>> This stuff, this way of "thinking" is really forced on
>> people, for lack of any prominent and viable alternatives.
>
>I know you mean grafted fruit and all that, but the bigger question is the
>evolution of culture, and how we can see beyond our culture.
Grafting and GMO's are both derived from the same suppositions and
mentality, to my point of view. In order to "see beyond our culture", we
need present, accessible and viable alternatives. Breeders should select
but work more within the context of the nature or the organism - respect
it's origins and integrity to a greater degree; work with it not against it -
not be as invasive but rather supportive. I hope you can distinguish the
difference.
>> I am going to start exporting real socially and
>> environmentally responsible tropical food - the world's first
>> international CSA movement, to complement the organic scene -
>> any takers? I'm not kidding.
>
>You know, half the people on this list will condemn you because they regard
>long-distance shipping as unnatural. I'm interested because I'll bet your
>produce tastes good.
That hasn't happened - the only responses have been positive and are moving
ahead. It looks like there is real interest in developing something concrete.
Also, if people are going to eat tropical fruit at all (and they are in most cases),
Mexico is in most cases less of a long-distance source than practically anywhere
else (depending on what state you're in). There were no negative responses, as
yet. Also, I AM basing what I will offer on what I myself prefer. (You are right
about the produce tasting good). I try to be congruent.
It did occur to me (after sending the last post) that I was having a little fun to
some degree at your expense and want you to know that your honesty and
insight is a definite plus in my opinion, a solid contribution to the list and
elsewhere. And while you may be a little short of (call it intuition) you seem
to seek it. And what you seem to seek is apparently genetically based (and
not recombinant). BTW: Were you breast fed as an infant?
My position was better stated in the post that preceded the one you responded
to (tissue, organ and organism based genetics in relation to evolution; calling for
a moratorium based on a clear and present danger to the biosystem and the
unknown and possible irreversible effects of GMO's on it; having this legislated
due to the mercenary nature of the GMO developers, etc.). You are good at what
you do. The problem is it's patricide and has no future because it's killing it's past.
But that's all right - it won't get far.
Douglas
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 20/05/99 at 9:19 AM Wilson, Dale wrote:
>Douglas,
>
>> If reproduction is based on genetics and genetics normally
>> occurs through sex and sex is ideally founded on love (which
>> itself could be considered a mature, controlled and sustained
>> form of desire), just where do GMO's fit in?
>
>Come on! this is a big gray area and you know it. Plenty of extreme
>manipulation is done using sex as a tool. Take animal breeding for example,
>or plant breeding. When we put shoot and tassel bags on thousands of corn
>lines and self them for six generations, how natural is that? How much love
>do you think is involved in that? Trying to derive some threshold of the
>"natural" beyond which it is evil to trespass will get you in trouble. No
>matter how stringent you are, someone, more "natural" still, will condemn
>you for manipulating nature. Doing agriculture in any form is unnatural
>from a frame of reference more defensible than yours.
>
>I would argue that manipulation of the environment is totally natural. From
>the tiniest cell, life is a struggle to maintain homeostasis. I could bring
>up all manner of examples from all the kingdoms, of cells and larger
>organisms manipulating the environment beyond the membrane using all manner
>of toxic materials, mechanical contrivances, and behaviors. I see an
>unbroken line of struggle for space, security, and resources from the very
>beginning of life all the way up to a breeder selecting disease resistance,
>the board room at DuPont, all the way to a Kosevar Albanian grabbing his
>coat on the way out the door of his already burning home. That doesn't mean
>that it is all good, just that appeal to natural law is a blind alley.
>
>I suggest a more pragmatic approach to deciding what is good for people and
>the environment than appeal to natural law.
>
>> Just where are you and Pioneer taking us, Dale?
>
>Hell if I know! Modernity is a wild beast running at top speed.
>
>> This whole thing is a joke and the funniest thing of all is
>> that it's so obviously garbage.
>
>I don't understand what exactly you think is a joke.
>
>> (Of course I just ate 2 K of seedling mangos - but then I hadn't
>> eaten all day. Now I'm chomping on some guamuchiles NEVER
>> grafted as I type this).
>
>I wish I had a mango right now, but I sure wouldn't eat 2 kg at one time ;-)
>
>> This stuff, this way of "thinking" is really forced on
>> people, for lack of any prominent and viable alternatives.
>
>I know you mean grafted fruit and all that, but the bigger question is the
>evolution of culture, and how we can see beyond our culture.
>
>> I am going to start exporting real socially and
>> environmentally responsible tropical food - the world's first
>> international CSA movement, to complement the organic scene -
>> any takers? I'm not kidding.
>
>You know, half the people on this list will condemn you because they regard
>long-distance shipping as unnatural. I'm interested because I'll bet your
>produce tastes good.
>
>Dale
Douglas M. Hinds
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural, A.C. (CeDeCoR)
(Center for Community and Rural Development)
Petronilo Lopez No. 73
Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO
e-mail: dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net, cedecor@ipnet.com.mx
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