[Fwd: exporting organics to Mexico]

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Message-ID: <37129729.8E908811@acnet.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:00:27 -0600
From: "Douglas M. Hinds" <dmhinds@acnet.net>
Organization: CeDeCoR
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To: "Anita Graf (Staff)" <agraf@agecon.uga.edu>
Subject: Re: exporting organics to Mexico
References: <2683B3B78A0@agecon.uga.edu>
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A bit long - but this may interest some of you.

Anita Graf (Staff) first wrote and I answered:

> Dear Mr. Hinds,
>
> ... you may be in
> a position to answer a question I have been pursuing... I have
> been recently trying to get a handle on the current situation for US
> organic exports to several different countries, and have not been
> able to get any information about Mexico. (In fact, I couldn't even
> find anyone in the Mex gov't that even knew what "organic" food is!)
>
> DH - Oficial federal regulations exist so you didn't talk to the right
> people.
>
> First, assuming that there IS a market for US organic food in Mexico,
>
> DH - The fact is, there isn't (hope you can read html text). The official
> federal regulations that exist were developed for primarily for export
> purposes, in response to OFPA's mandating countries wishing to export organic
> foods to the U.S. to have a similar
> structure in place. However, while the market for organics is as yet
> undeveloped (no supply makes demand unlikely - consumers won't ask for what
> they don't know and can't buy what isn't being offered). The potential is
> there for the same
> reasons that made it happen elsewhere: Noticeable eating quality
> differences (compared to conventional products) and health considerations.
> Low buying power will be the main problem, as things stand.
>
> can you tell me if there are any standards or organic-related
> procedures that such shipments would need to go through?
>
> DH - Commerce is an event that occurs between buyer and seller, mitigated by
> a legal structure that may or may not exist. For food to be sold as organic
> (as distinct being being in fact organically grown), we can assume that
> people who are familiar
> with what organic food is elsewhere, will be involved. This means that at
> present, governmental intervention will be minimal.
>
> I read about a new Mexican organic rule/regulation recently off the attache
>
> reports of the FAS (but again, have not had any luck contacting
> anyone listed on that report).
>
> DH - Like who? (were you trying to contact).
>
> I am not looking for information on what it takes to export regular
> foods (and here, I know that there's a slightly different path for a
> slew of differentiated food products), I just want to know if
> products which proport to be organic face any extra requirement upon
> entry to the Mexican market.
>
> Juridically, I doubt it. As stated, the quality has got to be there - that's
> the principal issue, along with buying power. You will have to begin with
> large towns and affluent neighborhoods.
>
> If you could help me this information, I would very much appreciate
> it.

The next round:

> You wrote:
> >
> > Like who? (were you trying to contact).
> >
> Well, let's see. I tried contacting the US Ag Trade Office (never
> got an answer -- the # I have for them is 525-202-0168, is this
> correct?),

When Elaine Bohen was contracted by the US Embassy (where her husband worked)
to represent the US Ag Trade Office some years back, she did so out of her home
and that was her number. However, the same fax number she used was also used
later. Try faxing 011 525 202 0528, but I can't guarantee it's still current.

> and I talked to at least 3 trade officials at SECOFI (I
> speak Spanish).

Would someone outside the U.S. wanting to export organic food products to the
U.S. need to talk to someone at the U.S. Dept. of Commerce, or someone at the
USDA?

You need to talk to someone at Sanidad Vegetal of the the SAGAR (Ag
Secretariat).

Try: 011 (525) 554-05-12 - Direccion General de Sanidad Vegetal
or
011 (525) 584-80-00 EXT. 126 - Direccion de Asuntos Internacionales

once again, these may or may not be current - but that's who you need to talk
to.

> > You still haven't told me just what it is you want to do. Export organic
> > foods to Mexico? Or do a study on it? If it's the former, you main
> > things you need are a product and a buyer. If it's the latter, there's
> > not a lot of precedent for it, as yet so there's not much out there in
> > the way of data.
>
> The latter. I'm working on an informational study for a variety of
> entities, including the U of GA (where I am), the Econ Research
> Service of the USDA and the Wallace Institute. Nothing of a
> practical nature is intended to occur YET! I'm just trying to find
> out what is the situation faced by US exporters of organic to various
> countries, including Mexico.
>
> > But everyone (except the one's you talked to, evidently)
>
> Evidently!!
>
> > already knows what organic food is. The disposition is
> > there. But the product had better be good - demonstrably better than the
> > conventional equivilent.
>
> I don't see why it would have to be "demonstrably" better (ie,
> prettier, tastier, or easier to handle) since that isn't a condition
> for organic in any other country. Organic ag represents a certain
> set of *production pracitices* not a final product. Most people who
> believe in organic ag are not only doing so out of support for the
> ecology of the planet, but because they have faith that the final
> product is different.

It's not just faith. And faith itself is strongest when founded on a physical
reality (although some may disagree). And even though the essence of an
organism (including fruits and vegetables) can transcend time and space, at
some given moment in time and space it will take form. In this particular
case, it happens that Mexicans in general are more skeptical by nature and/or
experience of "certified claims". In fact, Mexico is a revolutionary country,
and proudly so. Authority must be earned, it's not gratuitous or fatuous.
Furthermore, the Mexican diet is made up to a MUCH greater degree of fresh (as
opposed to processed) food products. (The reasons for this are the same that
induced me to decide to stay in Mexico since 1974). Their experience and
tastes are well enough developed to distinguish fine qualitative differences.

As an organic farmer myself since 1968, I too can say that the difference
between and organically grown and conventional product IS (and should be)
evident in a palpable way upon sinking ones teeth (assuming one has teeth) into
it. Lastly, many of the foods available are in fact organic in terms of the
inputs they've received (or not received) and even when the "organic label" is
absent (and this includes an area or two bypassed by "the organic community"
yet consonant with the concept), people DO prefer them and literally put their
money where their mouth is. So forget the hype - if that was true, what we're
discussing would be simply a "fad". and I don't believe that is the case.

> But unless you have a label informing you that
> a product is indeed organic (ie, was grown under organic conditions)
> you can't know for sure. This is why countries are scrambling to get
> trustworthy certification, accreditation and labeling programs in
> place. The label on an organic product is the only thing
> "demonstrable" about it's quality.

The above is simply a tribute to the sorry state of U.S. culture, where Homo
Sapiens as consumer, justifies someone else's exploitation and usurpation of an
intrinsically good and essential quality, for ends that instead of contributing
to a greater and more universal value, are promulgated for the benefit of few
instead of many, often in a fraudulent and illusory way. I hope you don't mind
my posting this - I believe it to be of general interest and I'd be interested
in the response.

> Now, I have no doubt that "organic" foods coming out of Mexico are
> either being regulated by the government

They have to be, by law. And this is true for conventional as well as organic
products.

> or they are being labeled by
> certification agencies recognized and established in other countries.
> (For example, I see that the broccoli in the stores here in GA comes
> from Mexico, but it is certified with QAI, a recognized international
> organic certifier.) If the "organicness" of product flowing OUT of
> Mexico is only assured by international certification agencies, then
> this is only a matter between buyer and seller and the gov't isn't
> involved.

The government IS involved because the U.S. government requires that, and these
crops are being grown for the export (i.e. U.S.) market. As for who certifies
it, that depends on the buyer and that is how it should be. (However, if OFPA
is implemented, the USDA will oversee the certifiers and that too may be well
and good, although legitimate certifiers themselves may have the final word on
that. What is NOT well and good is obligatory certification, since the nature
of the event does not require it in many cases, infringes on the rights of the
participants and makes organic products more expensive and less competitive
with conventional ones . If the buyer - be he/she a distributor or end user,
wants USDA certified organic - and all certified organic products sold in the
U.S. will be USDA certified organic products if OFPA is implemented, he/she can
specify that condition. Let it stand on it's own merit.

> This may very well be the case for organic product going
> INto Mexico as well. But I know that there ARE restrictions on
> "health food" items coming into Mexico,

Like what?

> I just don't know if
> "organic foods" fall in that catagory.
>
> But as I said before, I don't know if organic product IS going into
> Mexico. I imagine that in the upper classes there is some demand (or
> at least potential for it), and I also imagine that certain
> manufactured/processed organic food products would be difficult to
> supply in country. So there very well could be inflow of
> organically labeled product, and the issue of whether or not it is
> certifiably organic may be just between buyer and seller.

The potential is there, if the quality difference is palpable. (Please accept
that). But we are probably talking about the same U.S. export lines already
big in Mexico; namely: Apples. Pears, Grapes, Dates and Grains (there may be
others but those are the ones I'm aware of and it's only logical. You could
add cherries to that and anything thing else palatable that doesn't do well
here or hasn't been industrialized yet - like dates, which do well enough in
the Baja Sur if good varieties were put in. U.S. Xmas trees are another big
item, in December.

> But, for
> some reason, my bosses think that there might be some Mex. gov't
> intervention in this regard (for example in EU countries, US
> products have to go through a bunch of bureaucracy with the Ministry
> of Ag before they are allowed to carry a claim of "organic") and so
> they sent me to find out. And that's the story.

Well, bureaucrats will be bureaucrats, but try to understand that in general,
Mexico is a freer and more practical country than the U.S. (before jumping on
my cage dear readers, I acknowledge a few areas that may still need a little
improvement, but I've lived for over 25 years and get around - I know what I'm
talking about), and I would NOT assume that any expense is going to be
dedicated to an unnecessary process.

> Unless I hear otherwise soon, I am prepared to conclude that the
> Mexican gov't does not put any restrictions on or require any extra
> measures for product carrying a label of "organic."

No, don't conclude anything. Confirm it! And if you don't get results, feel
free to call on me again, but (particularly) if you're getting paid to do this,
I am not really in a position to do your legwork without being accredited with
a fair participation in whatever benefits may result from our (including my)
joint effort.

> >Somebody is going to have to give it a shot.
> > Go for it, Anita. If you need someone to get it set up for you, just let
> > me know.
>
> You're very kind. If I were going to try to build an organic market
> in Mexico, I would start with local producers of fresh produce and
> move on from there.

You would have to organize, educate and provide support for them, if you expect
them to get involved. (CeDeCoR does that).

> Once there is a market for fresh produce and
> organic products that could be easily processed there (like juice
> concentrate, canned tomatoes, cheese, etc.) then I would look for
> international suppliers of the other stuff (or they would probably
> come knocking on the door around then anyway). There may be some of
> this going on already.

I would NOT assume that processed foods are going to be a big thing in Mexico.
The Mexican diet consists of a much higher percentage of fresh fruits and
vegetables and the preparation of these in Mexican households receives much
more attention, with more elaborate results than in U.S. households in
general. I suggest you stick with products that are by nature life-giving. In
that same vein, organic supplements for the health conscious - including
physical culturists, could be big.

> The last time I was in Mexico, which was
> years ago, I was amazed at the number of vegetarian-health food
> restaurants there. I bet a person could find out more about the
> organic market by asking around in there.

Anita, I travel around the entire country and know plenty of people that are
involved with agriculture, organics, vegetarianism and health in general in
Mexico and there is not of yet any major market for organic products.
Meaning: Those organic crops now grown are exported, rather than offered on
the national market. Any exceptions would be most likely to be first found in
the big three - Mexico City, Guadalajara & Monterrey.

Just to ground my point in fact, I just called Guadalajara and talked to a
university student who lives in an upper middle class neighborhood, whose
family is also well educated (father has a Ph.D.. in anthropology from the
Sorbonne and is the major source in the world for organic sesame). She has
seen NO organic products for sale (and knows perfectly well what they are).
Her dad wasn't home (he may know of something in the planning stage there) but
will no doubt call me back. I could do the same for friends in Mexico City &
Monterrey but if I do, it'll be after 8 pm when the rates drop.

> Thanks for responding.
> Anita

Sure, any time. And as I said, I could help get this (or other projects)
going, at any point there's any serious offer, on either the research or the
commercial end.

> Anita Graf
> 313-F Conner Hall
> Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics
> University of Georgia
> Athens, GA 30602-7509
> (706) 542-1915 phone
> (706) 542-0739 fax
> agraf@agecon.uga.edu

--

Douglas M. Hinds, Director General
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR)
(Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit)
Petronilo Lopez No. 73 (Street Address)
Apdo. Postal No. 61 (Mailing Address)
Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO
U.S. Voice Mailbox: 1 630 300 0550 (e-mail linked)
U.S. Fax Mailbox: 1 630 300 0555 (e-mail linked)
Tel. & Fax: 011 523 412 6308 (direct)
e-mail: dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net, cedecor@ipnet.com.mx

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A bit long - but this may interest some of you.

Anita Graf (Staff) first wrote and I answered:

Dear Mr. Hinds,

  ... you may be in
  a position to answer a question I have been pursuing...  I have
  been recently trying to get a handle on the current situation for US
  organic exports to several different countries, and have not been
  able to get any information about Mexico.  (In fact, I couldn't even
  find anyone in the Mex gov't that even knew what "organic" food is!)

DH - Oficial federal regulations exist so you didn't talk to the right people.

  First, assuming that there IS a market for US organic food in Mexico,

DH - The fact is, there isn't (hope you can read html text).  The official federal regulations that exist were developed for primarily for export purposes, in response to OFPA's mandating countries wishing to export organic foods to the U.S. to have a similar
structure in place.  However, while the market for organics is as yet undeveloped (no supply makes demand unlikely - consumers won't ask for what they don't know and can't buy what isn't being offered).  The potential is there for the same
reasons that made it happen elsewhere:  Noticeable eating  quality differences (compared to conventional products) and health considerations.  Low buying power will be the main problem, as things stand.

  can you tell me if there are any standards or organic-related
  procedures that such shipments would need to go through?

DH - Commerce is an event that occurs between buyer and seller, mitigated by a legal structure that may or may not exist.  For food to be sold as organic (as distinct being being in fact organically grown), we can assume that people who are familiar
with what organic food is elsewhere, will be involved.  This means that at present, governmental intervention will be minimal.

  I read about a new Mexican organic rule/regulation recently off the attache
  reports of the FAS (but again, have not had any luck contacting
  anyone listed on that report).

DH - Like who? (were you trying to contact).

  I am not looking for information on what it takes to export regular
  foods (and here, I know that there's a slightly different path for a
  slew of differentiated food products), I just want to know if
  products which proport to be organic face any extra requirement upon
  entry to the Mexican market.

Juridically, I doubt it.  As stated, the quality has got to be there - that's the principal issue, along with buying power.  You will have to begin with large towns and affluent neighborhoods.

  If you could help me this information, I would very much appreciate
  it.

You wrote:
>
> Like who? (were you trying to contact).
>
Well, let's see.  I tried contacting the US Ag Trade Office (never
got an answer -- the # I have for them is 525-202-0168, is this
correct?),

and I talked to at least 3 trade officials at SECOFI (I
speak Spanish).

You need to talk to someone at Sanidad Vegetal of the the SAGAR (Ag Secretariat).
 
Try:  011 (525) 554-05-12 - Direccion General de Sanidad Vegetal
or
011 (525) 584-80-00 EXT. 126 - Direccion de Asuntos Internacionales

once again, these may or may not be current - but that's who you need to talk to.

> You still haven't told me just what it is you want to do.  Export organic
> foods to Mexico?  Or do a study on it?  If it's the former, you main
> things you need are a product and a buyer.  If it's the latter, there's
> not a lot of precedent for it, as yet so there's not much out there in
> the way of data.

The latter.  I'm working on an informational study for a variety of
entities, including the U of GA (where I am), the Econ Research
Service of the USDA and the Wallace Institute.  Nothing of a
practical nature is intended to occur YET!  I'm just trying to find
out what is the situation faced by US exporters of organic to various
countries, including Mexico.

> But everyone (except the one's you talked to,  evidently)

Evidently!!

> already knows what organic food is.  The disposition is
> there.  But the product had better be good - demonstrably better than the
> conventional equivilent.

I don't see why it would have to be "demonstrably" better (ie,
prettier, tastier, or easier to handle) since that isn't a condition
for organic in any other country.  Organic ag represents a certain
set of *production pracitices* not a final product.  Most people who
believe in organic ag are not only doing so out of support for the
ecology of the planet, but because they have faith that the final
product is different.

As an organic farmer myself since 1968, I too can say that the difference between and organically grown and conventional product IS (and should be) evident in a palpable way upon sinking ones teeth (assuming one has teeth) into it.  Lastly, many of the foods available are in fact organic in terms of the inputs they've received (or not received) and even when the "organic label" is absent (and this includes an area or two bypassed by "the organic community" yet consonant with the concept), people DO prefer them and literally put their money where their mouth is.  So forget the hype - if that was true, what we're discussing would be simply a "fad". and I don't believe that is the case.

But unless you have a label informing you that
a product is indeed organic (ie, was grown under organic conditions)
you can't know for sure.  This is why countries are scrambling to get
trustworthy certification, accreditation and labeling programs in
place.  The label on an organic product is the only thing
"demonstrable" about it's quality.

Now, I have no doubt that "organic" foods coming out of Mexico are
either being regulated by the government

or they are being labeled by
certification agencies recognized and established in other countries.
(For example, I see that the broccoli in the stores here in GA comes
from Mexico, but it is certified with QAI, a recognized international
organic certifier.)  If the "organicness" of product flowing OUT of
Mexico is only assured by international certification agencies, then
this is only a matter between buyer and seller and the gov't isn't
involved.

This may very well be the case for organic product going
INto Mexico as well.  But I know that  there ARE restrictions on
"health food" items coming into Mexico,

I just don't know if
"organic foods" fall in that catagory.

But as I said before, I don't know if organic product IS going into
Mexico.  I imagine that in the upper classes there is some demand (or
at least potential for it), and I also imagine that certain
manufactured/processed organic food products would be difficult to
supply  in country.  So there very well could be inflow of
organically labeled product, and the issue of whether or not it is
certifiably organic may be just between buyer and seller.

But, for
some reason, my bosses think that there might be some Mex. gov't
intervention in this regard (for example in EU countries, US
products have to go through a bunch of bureaucracy with the Ministry
of Ag before they are allowed to carry a claim of "organic") and so
they sent me to find out.  And that's the story.

Unless I hear otherwise soon, I am prepared to conclude that the
Mexican gov't does not put any restrictions on or require any extra
measures for product carrying a label of "organic."

>Somebody is going to have to give it a shot.
> Go for it, Anita.  If you need someone to get it set up for you, just let
> me know.

You're very kind.  If I were going to try to build an organic market
in Mexico, I would start with local producers of fresh produce and
move on from there.

Once there is a market for fresh produce and
organic products that could be easily processed there (like juice
concentrate, canned tomatoes, cheese, etc.) then I would look for
international suppliers of the other stuff (or they would probably
come knocking on the door around then anyway).  There may be some of
this going on already.

The last time I was in Mexico, which was
years ago, I was amazed at the number of vegetarian-health food
restaurants there.  I bet a person could find out more about the
organic market by asking around in there.

Just to ground my point in fact, I just called Guadalajara and talked to a university student who lives in an upper middle class neighborhood, whose family is also well educated (father has a Ph.D.. in anthropology from the Sorbonne and is the major source in the world for organic sesame).  She has seen NO organic products for sale (and knows perfectly well what they are).  Her dad wasn't home (he may know of something in the planning stage there) but will no doubt call me back.  I could do the same for friends in Mexico City & Monterrey but if I do, it'll be after 8 pm when the rates drop.

Thanks for responding.
Anita

Anita Graf
313-F Conner Hall
Dept. of Agricultural and Applied Economics
University of Georgia
Athens, GA  30602-7509
(706) 542-1915 phone
(706) 542-0739 fax
agraf@agecon.uga.edu

Douglas M. Hinds, Director General
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR)
(Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit)
Petronilo Lopez No. 73 (Street Address)
Apdo. Postal No. 61 (Mailing Address)
Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO
U.S. Voice Mailbox:  1 630 300 0550 (e-mail linked)
U.S. Fax Mailbox:  1 630 300 0555 (e-mail linked)
Tel. & Fax:  011 523 412 6308 (direct)
e-mail: dmhinds@acnet.net, cedecor@acnet.net, cedecor@ipnet.com.mx
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