sanet-mg-digest Wednesday, February 10 1999 Volume 01 : Number
819
In this issue:
Re: organic asparagus
Re: formally educated farmers...
Re: formally educated farmers...
RE: "Journey to Planet Earth" :DC event
Re: Fwd: GEN2-7
Re: formally educated farmers...
Re: formally educated farmers...
systems mgt / whole farm mgt
Re: formally educated farmers...
Re: Fwd: GEN2-7
Re: formally educated farmers...
Re: formally educated farmers...
See the end of the digest for information about sanet-mg-digest.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 19:07:24 +0000
From: "Laura K. Paine" <lkpaine@facstaff.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: organic asparagus
Dear Anne and others,
I did my masters research here at University of Wisconsin on asparagus
establishment with living mulches. We looked at perennial ryegrass and
white clover living mulches and focused our research on nitrogen use. I
can send you a reprint if you'll provide me with an address.
Laura Paine
UW Madison
At 04:35 PM 2/8/1999 -0800, you wrote:
>>Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:32:39 -0700
>From: Culbertson <pachamam@rmi.net>
>Subject: organic asparagus information wanted
>
>>I am in search of good resources for growing asparagus organically on a
>commercial scale, especially in regards to weed control. Drip irrigation
>under fabric mulches are of particular interest. Many thanks,
>Ewell Culbertson
>Pachamama Organic Farm
>
>
>
>I'd also be interested in this information, particularly polycultures,
>living mulches and harvesting strategies.
>Thanks Anne
>
>Sudoa Farm,
>Notch Hill, BC
>
>
>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 23:37:37 -0500
From: Steve Groff <sgroff@epix.net>
Subject: Re: formally educated farmers...
"E. Ann Clark, Associate Professor" wrote:
> Steve: I'm curious about something -
>
> > SYSTEM!!!!! But it has negative baggage i.e. high fuel usage, higher
> > prices for food (low income folks can't afford it), culitivation and
> > tillage induce carbon loss and soil erosion, is more labor intensive,
and
> > is generally not receptive to new technology that might be
> > environmentally friendly . There is no system in agriculture that is
> >
>
> I'm not clear on the evidence for most of the above assertions.
The context of my above response was in regards to the way we *educate* or
teach, our sustainable ideas to Universities, farmers,and consumers. That
was
the subject of the thread. I will still repond to you questions.
>
>
> 1. Fuel usage - perhaps, although this is a commodity-specific
> issue. In our analyses of dairy farmers in Ontario, I could see
> little or no evidence for increased fuel usage over the whole
> rotation - individual crops perhaps. More passes for cultivation in
> vegetable crops - fair enough. But the cereals and forages -
> probably not. the whole point of rotation is to shut-off the niches
> that allow weeds and other pests to proliferate.
going across a field less times and pulling lighter implements requires
less
synthetic, non reneweable, polluting fuel.
>
>
> 2. Higher prices for food - why? The analyses I've seen (granted, a
> few years old now) found that the main reason for higher prices to
> consumer was a much higher mark-up at the retail end. Price received
> by the producer was little if any higher. In our dairy analyses,
> again, they marketed directly into the bulk pool for many years
> before finally getting permission to segregate and market as organic.
> So, they got no premium and did fine - actually, our analyses would
> suggest organic made more money than conventional. So, depending on
> "why" the prices are higher, this is a situation that could very well
> settle out over time, as organic produce occupies a larger and more
> consistent share of the produce on offer at grocery stores. This
> leaves aside, of course, the issue of whether the prices received by
> conventional producers are at all fair - which they aren't - but
> that's another story.
I was unaware that organic food prices were on average the same as non
organic
prices. Most organic farmers I know need the premiums to cover for
increased
labor. I could see that a organic grazing dairymen would make higher
profits
w/o price premiums, but not all organics lumped together.
>
>
> 3. Tillage and carbon loss - NO. Pretty well every analysis I've
> seen on this shows that organic farms have higher - not lower -
> levels of soil OM and much reduced risk of erosion. Tillage does NOT
> translate into erosion and degradation when done in a sensibly
> designed rotation with narrow-row cereals, perennial sods/plowdown
> crops/cover crops/manure in the rotation. Fair enough in a standard
> corn-soybean rotation, but evidence does not support generalizing
> this to all tillage.
tillage (all forms) DOES incur OM loss. carbon becomes CO2 and goes into
the
atmosphere. 1 plow pass will burn up as much OM as it turns down. reduced
tillage will lessen the effect. I have yet to see an organic farm increase
OM
without using compost or manure. it can be done by not tilling though.
>
>
> 4. Labor intensive - again, a commodity specific issue. The dairy
> analysis found almost precisely the same amount of labor per unit
> milk produced. The same, I'm almost positive, would pertain on many
> livestock-based farming systems, where the animals do most of the
> work. Much - although granted, not all, of the "labor", in my
> experience on an organic or well managed "management-intensive" farm
> (e.g. IPM) is in thinking and planning to capture the natural
> synergies so that you don't have to do the manual labor.
again we are looking at the *whole* picture. It takes more labor to run an
average organic farm and that is a REAL issue to most farmers.
>
>
> 6. Not receptive to new environmentally protective technologies?
> What would you be referring to here? Roundup? GE crops? Perhaps
> some elaboration is in order so I can respond in a more focused way.
> In general, however, most of the "technologies" that are touted as
> protecting the environment are a pale reflection of technologies long
> established and effective on organic farms.
your last sentence illustrates my point. There is a general tendency to
dismiss
new stuff, just because it is new and not because it has been given
thorough
consideration of its merits. my justfication for new technology is that if
it
can be my servant, I will concider using it.
If you sincerely listen to those who have differing agriculture
philosophies,
they will intern listen to your own ideas. I have found this to work for
me.
>
>
> So, I'm having a little difficulty accepting your points and would
> like to hear more from you on how you justify them. Ann
Hope this helps! A forum like this hardly does justice to the subject, but
an
exchange of ideas is good non- the- less.
Steve Groff
- --
"New Generation Cropping Systems": the cutting edge of sustainable
agriculture
http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com
Steve Groff
Cedar Meadow Farm
679 Hilldale Rd
Holtwood PA 17532 USA
Ph. 717-284-5152
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 06:24:58 EST
From: "E. Ann Clark, Associate Professor" <ACLARK@plant.uoguelph.ca>
Subject: Re: formally educated farmers...
Steve: I think my posts, and those of others on this thread, should
clarify that it is unwise to generalize across all organic farms on
issues such as labor, price, and soil. The literature does not
support most of your premises. Ann
ACLARK@plant.uoguelph.ca
Dr. E. Ann Clark
Associate Professor
Crop Science
University of Guelph
Guelph, ON N1G 2W1
Phone: 519-824-4120 Ext. 2508
FAX: 519 763-8933
http://www.oac.uoguelph.ca/www/CRSC/faculty/eac.htm
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:37:00 -0500
From: Andy Clark <aclark@nal.usda.gov>
Subject: RE: "Journey to Planet Earth" :DC event
Sanet -- especially those in the DC area:
The Smithsonian Institution is sponsoring a lecture entitled:
World Premiere Highlights from PBS' Journey to Planet Earth
to be held at the Museum of Natural History in DC on March 30 at 7:00 p.m.
See below for more details. You can order tickets online at
http://www.si.edu/youandsi/join/tsa/rap/otomar/premiere.htm
or call 202-357-3030.
I attend such lectures regularly, and they are well worth it!
See you there?
Andy
World Premiere Highlights from PBS' Journey to Planet Earth
With Guest Kelly McGillis
Tues., March 30, 7 p.m.
A bold new three-part PBS television series, Journey to Planet Earth
introduces audiences to a fresh and spectacular
perspective on our planet and its future. Series narrator Kelly McGillis is
our guide for the journey--one that brings us to
a fuller understanding of the delicate balance between the global ecosystem
and the human race's ever-increasing
demands upon it.
Working closely with computer scientists to develop stunning new images,
the
Emmy Award-winning production team of
Hal and Marilyn Weiner have created a sweeping panoramic view of Earth from
space, highlighting natural landscapes,
rather than familiar national or political boundaries. Breathtaking vistas
include Turkey's Bosphorus Strait, Mexico's
Popocatepetl volcano, and never-before-seen views of the Amazon and Jordan
rivers.
The evening includes a viewing of selected segments from Journey to Planet
Earth and lively discussion among special
guests Kelly McGillis, Hal and Marilyn Weiner, and others.
Location: Baird Auditorium, National Museum of Natural History, 10th &
Constitution Ave., NW
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu
[mailto:owner-sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 5:31 PM
To: sanet-mg-digest@ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: sanet-mg-digest V1 #817
Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:05:34 -0500 (EST)
From: vberton@wam.umd.edu (Valerie Berton)
Subject: "Journey to Planet Earth" to feature sust ag
What follows are excerpts from a public television press release that
details a three-part mini-series, "Journey to Planet Earth," to air on PBS
in April. For sanet, I've focused on part 3, "Land of Plenty, Land of
Want," a study of agriculture in diverse farming communities. One profilee
is our fellow subscriber and sustainable ag practitioner/advocate Steve
Groff.
Note to teachers: A bunch of free educational materials were developed to
dovetail with the series. That information will come at the end of this
message.
"Land of Plenty, Land of Want" was funded in part by USDA's Sustainable
Agriculture Research and Education (SARE) program. For more information,
contact Michele Reap of South Carolina Educational TV at the e-mail address
in the cc: line above.
Valerie
JOURNEY TO PLANET EARTH
THREE-PART MINISERIES PREMIERES APRIL 6 ON PBS
FREE EDUCATIONAL MATERIALS AVAILABLE
The delicate relationship between people and the world they inhabit is
explored in a new three-part documentary miniseries, JOURNEY TO PLANET
EARTH, premiering Tuesday, April 6, 10-11 p.m. ET on PBS (check local
listings). The series is made possible in part by funding from the USDA's
SARE program.
<Stuff deleted>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:23:23 -0400
From: Daniel Worley <dan.worley@mindless.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: GEN2-7
At 18:06 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>In response to the following post...
>
>> >UK Government Burns Biotech Canola
[snip]
>A buffer zone of 6 m is hardly enough to minimize transfer of GM
>canola pollen...
Good points all Joel. Just how much of a buffer zone would be needed? I
don't know much about these things, but have heard that bees can travel as
far as a mile or more from their hive in search of nectar. So it would
seem plausible to me that a buffer of at least that far should be required.
Anyone with the credentials care to comment?
From the litigations in progress right now, it seems the seed companies
(Monsanto in particular) refuse to admit the fact that cross pollination
can occur at all.
--Dan in Sunny Puerto Rico--
dan.worley@mindless.com
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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at:
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:04:59 -0400
From: Bob MacGregor <rdmacgregor@gov.pe.ca>
Subject: Re: formally educated farmers...
Steve,
you said: "It takes more labor to run an
average organic farm and that is a REAL issue to most farmers."
I agree, but have been wondering why none of the farm-philosophers on the
list have raised the issue of why we still view labour substitution so
favourably. After all, a strong case can be made that substituting
machinery and chemicals for labour has contributed to global warming,
accelerated rural depopulation (and the concommitent disintegration of
rural communities), increased unemployment, exacerbated soil
erosion/deterioration, promoted farm consolidation and otherwise engendered
many of the problems we discuss on this list.
There have also been positive effects, at least in the near-term, of course,
but I am intrigued that no one voiced the view that more farm labour might
be a good thing. I wonder how high the price of gasoline or diesel would
have to be to make labour competitive again...?
BOB
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:39:38 -0500
From: Steve Groff <sgroff@epix.net>
Subject: Re: formally educated farmers...
"E. Ann Clark, Associate Professor" wrote:
> Steve: I think my posts, and those of others on this thread, should
> clarify that it is unwise to generalize across all organic farms on
> issues such as labor, price, and soil.
Agreed. please return the favor of not putting all farmers who are not
organic in the same basket as conventional farmers. I should have been
more clear in where I'm coming from as an alternative farmer. (1 point
we have all learned from this tread in educating others: don't
generalize-be specific!)
> The literature does not
> support most of your premises.
I don't have your literature so I don't know. I talk to farmers and that
is what my information is based on. (another point: balance literature
with experiance. We need them both! Believe me Ann, if I had cows, I be
the first one at your door to learn how to best manage them!)
Steve Groff
- --
"New Generation Cropping Systems": the cutting edge of sustainable
agriculture
http://www.cedarmeadowfarm.com
Steve Groff
Cedar Meadow Farm
679 Hilldale Rd
Holtwood PA 17532 USA
Ph. 717-284-5152
To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:09:14 -0800
From: Debbie Ortman <safefood@cp.duluth.mn.us>
Subject: systems mgt / whole farm mgt
I wanted to introduce you to a new website that covers systems management
for farmers and those who work with farmers. Go to:
http://www.misa.umn.edu/~mnproj/wfp/index.htm
You will find information on work in other states, the NASDA/NRCS work on
whole farm planning, links to Holistic Management, and other useful
information. The site is set up to add your work on farm systems
management. Please be sure to sign the guestbook!
Michelle Miller
Pesticide Use and Risk Reduction Project
Center for Integrated Agricultural Systems
University of Wisconsin - Madison
U.S. Mail: 146 Agriculture Hall 608.262.7135
Campus: 1535 Observatory Drive 608.262.5200
Madison, WI 53706 fax 265.3020
www.wisc.edu/cias/ mmmille6@facstaff.wisc.edu
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:37:22 -0500
From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" <hey4hogs@kuntrynet.com>
Subject: Re: formally educated farmers...
Bob,
I just wanted to add a couple of things to your list -- declining health
status and increasing obesity of the majority of the American population.
(Sure, we might be living longer, but we are living longer with diseases
such as cancer, diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, etc.) I feel that
the lack of physical labor (and poor nutrition) contributes to these
conditions. And this applies to many different occupations, not just
farming.
Lei
Gunthorp's Pasture-ized Pork
LaGrange, Indiana
visit our farm at www.grassfarmer.com
Bob had written:
> I agree, but have been wondering why none of the farm-philosophers on the
list have raised the issue of why we still view labour substitution so
favourably. After all, a strong case can be made that substituting
machinery and chemicals for labour has contributed to global warming,
accelerated rural depopulation (and the concommitent disintegration of
rural communities), increased unemployment, exacerbated soil
erosion/deterioration, promoted farm consolidation and otherwise engendered
many of the problems we discuss on this list.
To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:44:00 -0800 (PST)
From: "Anton Doroszenko (TL, Fld Crp)" <A.DOROSZENKO@cabi.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: GEN2-7
Here is a paper that may be of interest.
Anton Doroszenko
CAB International
AU: Dale, P. J.\ McPartlan, H. C.\ Parkinson, R.\ Scheffler, J. A.
TI: Gene dispersal from transgenic plants.
CT: Annual report 1992, AFRC Institute of Plant Science Research, Cambridge
Laboratory, John Innes Institute, Nitrogen Fixation Laboratory
and
Sainsbury Laboratory.
PB: Norwich, UK
YR: 1993
PP: 9-11
AA: Cambridge Laboratory, John Innes Centre, Norwich Research Park, Colney,
Norwich NR4 7UH, UK.
AB: Potential outcrossing in the field between genetically engineered rape
(cv. Westar) carrying the bar gene conferring resistance to the
herbicide glufosinate and non-transgenic herbicide-sensitive
plants
was studied using an experimental design in which a 9 m diameter
circle of transgenic plants was surrounded by 1 ha of sensitive
rape plants. Progeny were collected at various distances from
the
transgenic nucleus of plants. At 1 and 3 m from the edge of the
transgenic plot, estimated outcrossing rates were 1.4 and 0.4%,
respectively, decreasing to 0.00034% at a distance of 12 m.
Similar
experiments studying cross pollination between potato and its
weedy
relatives Solanum nigrum and S. dulcamara using the NptII gene
(kanamycin resistance) and GUS showed no evidence of outcrossing,
whilst an experiment involving transgenic and non-transgenic
potatoes revealed 24% outcrossing between adjacent rows,
decreasing
to 0.017% at 10 m and no outcrossing at 20 m distance. Data
generated by these gene dispersal experiments are being used by
the
Regulatory Authorities to determine isolation distances and
monitoring procedures for the release of transgenic plants in
the
UK.
----------
From: Daniel Worley
To: joel b gruver
Cc: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu
Subject: Re: Fwd: GEN2-7
Date: 10 February 1999 05:23
At 18:06 2/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>In response to the following post...
>
>> >UK Government Burns Biotech Canola
[snip]
>A buffer zone of 6 m is hardly enough to minimize transfer of GM
>canola pollen...
Good points all Joel. Just how much of a buffer zone would be needed? I
don't know much about these things, but have heard that bees can travel as
far as a mile or more from their hive in search of nectar. So it would
seem plausible to me that a buffer of at least that far should be required.
Anyone with the credentials care to comment?
From the litigations in progress right now, it seems the seed companies
(Monsanto in particular) refuse to admit the fact that cross pollination
can occur at all.
--Dan in Sunny Puerto Rico--
dan.worley@mindless.com
To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
"unsubscribe sanet-mg".
To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
"subscribe sanet-mg-digest".
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:19:46 -0500
From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
Subject: Re: formally educated farmers...
Bob,
Excellent point about labor. The work of Ecology Action showed that farming
with machinery burns 10 calories of energy (diesel fuel) for every calorie
of food produced and that hand labor produces 100 calories of food for
every calorie (food) used.
Now, food being a renewable resource and mostly produced on the farm, farms
are more sustainable if they use hand labor.
The only problem with this is that most Americans today (Yipes, a
generalization!) don't wan to work as hard as it takes to farm this way,
just some farmers. Also, Americans want to earn at least a middle class
income. And, we define success or sustain ability by these same monetary
standards.
To farm with primarily hand labor can be done- I've been doing it for the
past 8 years. We live on an income that's around poverty level but are the
richest people around. It's a matter of priorities and stepping outside the
American dream and valuing what's real.
Alex
Bob MacGregor wrote:
> Steve,
> you said: "It takes more labor to run an
> average organic farm and that is a REAL issue to most farmers."
>
> I agree, but have been wondering why none of the farm-philosophers on the
list have raised the issue of why we still view labour substitution so
favourably. After all, a strong case can be made that substituting
machinery and chemicals for labour has contributed to global warming,
accelerated rural depopulation (and the concommitent disintegration of
rural communities), increased unemployment, exacerbated soil
erosion/deterioration, promoted farm consolidation and otherwise engendered
many of the problems we discuss on this list.
>
> There have also been positive effects, at least in the near-term, of
course, but I am intrigued that no one voiced the view that more farm
labour might be a good thing. I wonder how high the price of gasoline or
diesel would have to be to make labour competitive again...?
>
> BOB
>
>
> To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
> "unsubscribe sanet-mg".
> To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
> "subscribe sanet-mg-digest".
>
> All messages to sanet-mg are archived at:
> http://www.sare.org/htdocs/hypermail
To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the command
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All messages to sanet-mg are archived at:
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:58:58 -0500
From: "Greg & Lei Gunthorp" <hey4hogs@kuntrynet.com>
Subject: Re: formally educated farmers...
Alex,
There is also a positive economic sustainability issue to the higher
labor operations. Labor(not hired) is an expense that goes in the
operators pocket. Machinery, equipment, fuel, etc are expenses that goes
in the John Deere Dealer, Chemical company, other input sector peoples
pockets'.
I think the case could very easily be made that it is the management
intensive operations that are the most sustainable economically as they are
the ones with the highest percentage of gross sales left to support
families.
Just a thought: It wouldn't take much equipment or additional investment
in technology on our pasture hog operation to make it no more than a money
draining hobby rather than a family supporting farm.
Best wishes,
Greg
Gunthorp's Pasture-ized Pork
LaGrange, Indiana
visit our farm at www.grassfarmer.com
- ----------
> From: Alex McGregor <waldenfarm@sprintmail.com>
> To: Bob MacGregor <rdmacgregor@gov.pe.ca>
> Cc: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu
> Subject: Re: formally educated farmers...
> Date: Wednesday, February 10, 1999 11:19 AM
>
> Bob,
>
> Excellent point about labor. The work of Ecology Action showed that
farming with machinery burns 10 calories of energy (diesel fuel) for every
calorie of food produced and that hand labor produces 100 calories of food
for every calorie (food) used.
>
> Now, food being a renewable resource and mostly produced on the farm,
farms are more sustainable if they use hand labor.
>
> The only problem with this is that most Americans today (Yipes, a
generalization!) don't wan to work as hard as it takes to farm this way,
just some farmers. Also, Americans want to earn at least a middle class
income. And, we define success or sustain ability by these same monetary
standards.
>
> To farm with primarily hand labor can be done- I've been doing it for the
past 8 years. We live on an income that's around poverty level but are the
richest people around. It's a matter of priorities and stepping outside the
American dream and valuing what's real.
>
> Alex
>
> Bob MacGregor wrote:
>
> > Steve,
> > you said: "It takes more labor to run an
> > average organic farm and that is a REAL issue to most farmers."
> >
> > I agree, but have been wondering why none of the farm-philosophers on
the list have raised the issue of why we still view labour substitution so
favourably. After all, a strong case can be made that substituting
machinery and chemicals for labour has contributed to global warming,
accelerated rural depopulation (and the concommitent disintegration of
rural communities), increased unemployment, exacerbated soil
erosion/deterioration, promoted farm consolidation and otherwise engendered
many of the problems we discuss on this list.
> >
> > There have also been positive effects, at least in the near-term, of
course, but I am intrigued that no one voiced the view that more farm
labour might be a good thing. I wonder how high the price of gasoline or
diesel would have to be to make labour competitive again...?
> >
> > BOB
> >
> >
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>
>
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Clara K. Cohen, AAAS Fellow
USAID/G/EGAD/AFS
RRB 2.11-102
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