Re: phyto-nutrients (sanet-mg-digest V1 #517)

Douglas M. Hinds (dmhinds@acnet.net)
Sat, 29 Aug 1998 09:46:57 -0600

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Hi Bruce and group. My reply begins about 6 paragraphs down.

Bruce Bacon wrote:

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:02:59 -0600
> From: "Douglas M. Hinds" <dmhinds@acnet.net>
> Subject: Re: Phyto-nutrients
>
> >Right - development of a set of objective criteria capable of
> >distinguishing >real & significant diffences that no doubt exist in food
> >related to production methods is a worthy goal.
>
> >> . Does anyone have any opinions or references on this subject? Is there
> >> anyone that you know of that would be able to speak about this subject at a
> >> large sustainable agriculture conference? > Thanks, Thomas Wittman
>
> >What's the budget?
> ______________________________________________
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Doug, Let me quote from SEVENTH Peace Seeds Resource Journal 1994: titled
> "The Twenty Protein Amino Acids Are Primary Human Food A Food System with
> Non-Violent Roots IV. Carrots, Peas, Apios and Others" by A.M.Kapuler
> Ph.D. and S. Gurusiddiah Ph.D. Bioanalytical Laboratory, Washington State
> University, Pullman, WA 99164-4430 July 4, 1994" (pps 66-74)
>
> The 20 amino acids that are the primary builders of our cellular
> and body proteins serve many functions.

If I recall correctly, the 20 odd human amino acids can be synthesized from only 8,
which consist of 6 + either one pair (2), or another pair. These 6+2a or 6+2b are
for that reason termed "essential" amino acids, for their ability to support the
derivation of the total number used for building human tissue.

> ... As a way of looking for nutritional significance in the selection
> of our food plants, we can identify the twenty amino acids that build
> proteins and provide a broad base to establish directions for taking our
> current food selection system to a more advanced, integrated and nutritious
> one.

Either my data is out of date (quite possible) or we have a significant divergence
in criteria here. I would be interested in determining which, because the
implications are important. Using the same definition of the term "essential" as
provided above (capable of deriving all the rest) as regarding human amino acids,
what follows is either on target or off target (equivalent to thinking we need to
eat a heart in order to rebuild heart tissue - and given this guys credentials, I
would almost - but not quite - be willing to give him to benefit of the doubt -
i.e., that more "essential" amino acids have been identified since the data I'm
quoting from memory. If that's not so, the implications re his thesis are obvious),
and in any case, this is only ONE line of indicators. I'd say the bottom line is
rooted in the performance factors, and even those are subject to differing criteria
& measurements (output vs longevity & disease resistance; even "happiness" or
REproductivity, for instance).

> In our previous three papers (1-3) and recent summary (4), we have
> made and confirmed the following observations:
> 1. Free amino acids of the type that build cellular proteins are
> widespread in common fruits and vegetables. Amounts vary profoundly, both
> qualitatively in terms of individual amino acids as well as in the total
> amount abvailable for protein synthesis.

My own criteria is a bit more holistic, rather than ingredient oriented; I've found
the innate function of the "thing used for food" to be of prime importance. (This
leads us to a very simple principle which perhaps has not been discussed here
previously, one which could lead in turn to defining a given food as "food by
nature" (milk is an example), or "used as food". These are not the same. But when
talking about availability of nutrients, I would definitely start there. If my
supposition is correct (and I believe / have found it is), the rest of the
indicators (from DNA on up) will follow.

Incidentally, this is consistent with his premise, i.e. " A Food System with
Non-Violent Roots".

> 2. All 20 amino acids needed for protein synthesis can be found
> free (not already in proteins) in highest amounts in fresh pods of peas and
> beans, immature okra, potatoes and in alliums, especially onions and leeks.

The 8 (and I stand to be corrected) amino acids needed for full protein synthesis
can be found in tomatoes, squash, cucumbers, peppers, & plantains, among others.
While all but the last are commonly classified as vegetables (i.e. the USDA's fruit
& vegetable marketing service quotes prices for them there), they are all in fact
botanically fruits, if allowed to mature. (This is significant in the context of my
preceding paragraph's commentary). Also: How important is it that all 8 or 20 be
found free? Metabolism consists of both catabolism and anabolism, in any case. We
need to substantiate a qualitative difference here.

[I am going to have to let this go until later, as I must be out of here tomorrow
and have much to prepare today so I can do that. But first I'm going to point out
one further example of the area divergence I'm finding here, after scanning quickly
below].

> 3. Alcoholic tinctures of fresh herbs and vegetables are in part
> concentrated amino acid preparations.

This is his method of analysis? If so, it will alter the findings.

> 4. The different root, leaf and fruit crops have characteristic
> analytical patterns; there are distinguishing varietal differences in some
> cultivars as well.

Fine. But what methodology is he using to measure these "crops".

> In this paper we present data for a 8 varieties of carrots and
> peas, 14 groundnuts (Apios sp.) and several other crops including 2 winter
> squashes, a groundcherry, 3 spinaches, a strawberry, two turnips and the
> Hoxsey anti-cancer herbal tonic.

There is data that includes foods both in & out of my supposition.

> [ Table 1. Free Amino Acids in 8 Varieties of Carrots-and discussion (pps67-68)
> [ Table 2: Free Amino Acids in Apios Tubers (p 69)
> [ Table 3: Free Amino Acids in Pisum Fresh Edible Pods (p 70)
> [ Table 4: Free Amino Acids in the Juices of Winter Squash, Spinach,
> Turnips, Poke Salad, a Strawberry and the Hoxsey Herbal Cancer Tonic (pps
> 71-73)
> Discussion and references (pps 73-74)
> <excerpt continues>..........p 73.
> We have discovered inside our cells, and the cells of all
> creaturews, tiny bodies builtfromn RNA and proteins. On these structures
> we call ribosomes, proteins of our cells are made. Messenger RNA
> instructions from our DNA contains genfo {genetic information} for at least
> 30,000 different kinds of proteins. The translation of the DNA
> instructions thru RNA occurs on these ribosomes. In essence we have
> hundreds to many thousands of tiny assembling jigs inside our cells that
> put together activated free 20 amino acids into long sequences, generally
> 150-200 amino acids long, following a specific RNA sequence assembled from
> copies of the DNA. We call these polyamino acids proteins.
> Since the basic system of protein synthesis is the same for all
> cells, bacteria to humans,, including all plants, fungi, and animals, the
> amino acids that feed it are primary food. Pdroteins as food are broken
> down into the commponent amino acids by our digestive juices. Analyses of
> most proteins show them to be made from a specific 20 amino acids. In some
> proteins, there are modifications of the coded 20 giving several others
> generally found in trace amounts.

> Some of our foods are from immature pods; snapbeans, snappeas and
> okra are good examples. We have found these to have the highest amounts of
> free amino acids.

Divergence! Immature is unfinished! (I told you it was a simple principle).

> This makes sense since the plants are making their
> high-protein content seeds.

Right - for their own reproduction.

> Next is roots, good sources for several of the
> difficult to find, essential [his first use of the term here] amino acids:
> Potatoes, burdock, carrots, and
> yacon. The allium bulbs are good free amino acid sources particularly for
> ones central to cellular sugar metabolism. Other significant sources for
> free amino acids are salad leaves of many genera and families, immature
> flowerbuds and fruits like tomatoes. [my emphasis - I personally eat a lot of
> them, and he's correctly pegged it as a fruit] Data and development of this
> information are contained in four papers in Peace Seeds Resource Journals
> 3-7, 1987-1994.
> (p74) A new horizon in plant breeding appears by increasing the
> amounts of free amino acids available in our current crops and by working
> towards enhancing them in other crops like apples, strawberries, sweet corn
> and the salad brassicas.
> Selection of vegetable, salad and fruit plant crops for the 20 code
> amino acids is now a potential direction for agriculture. It is both
> general and specific with a broad horizon that focuses on improving our
> nutrition and as a result, our health. [end quote]

Once again - why "20" and why "free"?

> Well Doug, good question, "What's the budget?" We stand on the
> shoulders of giants. Best Regards, BBacon

Gee, I thought it was the other way around! (I've consulted for a number of PhD's).

Any email address for Dr. Kapuler? (I may not be able to run a search on that for a
few days).

--

Douglas M. Hinds, Director General
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR)
(Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit)
Petronilo Lopez No. 73 (Street Address)
Apdo. Postal No. 61 (Mailing Address)
Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO
U.S. Voice Mailbox: 1 630 300 0550 (e-mail linked)
U.S. Fax Mailbox: 1 630 300 0555 (e-mail linked)
Tel. & Fax: 011 523 412 6308 (direct)
e-mail: dmhinds@acnet.net, dhinds@ucol.mx,
cedecor@acnet.net, cedecor@ipnet.com.mx

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Hi Bruce and group.  My reply begins about 6 paragraphs down.

Bruce Bacon wrote:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:02:59 -0600
From: "Douglas M. Hinds" <dmhinds@acnet.net>
Subject: Re: Phyto-nutrients

>Right - development of a set of objective criteria capable of
>distinguishing >real & significant diffences that no doubt exist in food
>related to production methods is a worthy goal.

>> .   Does anyone have any opinions or references on this subject?  Is there
>> anyone that you know of that would be able to speak about this subject at a
>> large sustainable agriculture conference? > Thanks, Thomas Wittman

>What's the budget?
______________________________________________
-------------------------------------------------------
Dear Doug,  Let me quote from SEVENTH Peace Seeds Resource Journal 1994: titled
"The Twenty Protein Amino Acids Are Primary Human Food   A Food System with
Non-Violent Roots  IV. Carrots, Peas, Apios and Others"  by A.M.Kapuler
Ph.D. and S. Gurusiddiah Ph.D.  Bioanalytical Laboratory, Washington State
University, Pullman, WA  99164-4430  July 4, 1994"   (pps 66-74)

         The 20 amino acids that are the primary builders of our cellular
and body proteins serve many functions.

If I recall correctly, the 20 odd human amino acids can be synthesized from only 8, which consist of 6 + either one pair (2), or another pair. These 6+2a or 6+2b are for that reason termed "essential" amino acids, for their ability to support the derivation of the total number used for building human tissue.
...        As a way of looking for nutritional significance in the selection
of our food plants, we can identify the twenty amino acids that build
proteins and provide a broad base to establish directions for taking our
current food selection system to a more advanced, integrated and nutritious
one.
Either my data is out of date (quite possible) or we have a significant divergence in criteria here.  I would be interested in determining which, because the implications are important.  Using the same definition of the term "essential" as provided above (capable of deriving all the rest) as regarding human amino acids, what follows is either on target or off target (equivalent to thinking we need to eat a heart in order to rebuild heart tissue - and given this guys credentials, I would almost - but not quite - be willing to give him to benefit of the doubt - i.e., that more "essential" amino acids have been identified since the data I'm quoting from memory.  If that's not so, the implications re his thesis are obvious), and in any case, this is only ONE line of indicators.  I'd say the bottom line is rooted in the performance factors, and even those are subject to differing criteria & measurements (output vs longevity & disease resistance; even "happiness" or REproductivity, for instance).
        In our previous three papers (1-3) and recent summary (4), we have
made and confirmed the following observations:
        1.  Free amino acids of the type that build cellular proteins are
widespread in common fruits and vegetables.  Amounts vary profoundly, both
qualitatively in terms of individual amino acids as well as in the total
amount abvailable for protein synthesis.
My own criteria is a bit more holistic, rather than ingredient oriented; I've found the innate function of the "thing used for food" to be of prime importance.  (This leads us to a very simple principle which perhaps has not been discussed here previously, one which could lead in turn to defining a given food as "food by nature" (milk is an example), or "used as food".  These are not the same.  But when talking about availability of nutrients, I would definitely start there.  If my supposition is correct (and I believe / have found it is), the rest of the indicators (from DNA on up) will follow.

Incidentally, this is consistent with his premise, i.e. " A Food System with Non-Violent Roots".

2.  All 20 amino acids needed for protein synthesis can be found
free (not already in proteins) in highest amounts in fresh pods of peas and
beans, immature okra, potatoes and in alliums, especially onions and leeks.
The 8 (and I stand to be corrected) amino acids needed for full protein synthesis can be found in tomatoes, squash, cucumbers, peppers, & plantains, among others.  While all but the last are commonly classified as vegetables (i.e. the USDA's fruit & vegetable marketing service quotes prices for them there), they are all in fact botanically fruits, if allowed to mature.  (This is significant in the context of my preceding paragraph's commentary).  Also:  How important is it that all 8 or 20 be found free?  Metabolism consists of both catabolism and anabolism, in any case.  We need to substantiate a qualitative difference here.

[I am going to have to let this go until later, as I must be out of here tomorrow and have much to prepare today so I can do that.  But first I'm going to point out one further example of the area divergence I'm finding here, after scanning quickly below].

        3.  Alcoholic tinctures of fresh herbs and vegetables are in part
concentrated amino acid preparations.
This is his method of analysis?  If so, it will alter the findings.
        4.  The different root, leaf and fruit crops have characteristic
analytical patterns; there are distinguishing varietal differences in some
cultivars as well.
Fine.  But what methodology is he using to measure these "crops".
        In this paper we present data for a 8 varieties of carrots and
peas, 14 groundnuts (Apios sp.) and several other crops including 2 winter
squashes, a groundcherry, 3 spinaches, a strawberry, two turnips and the
Hoxsey anti-cancer herbal tonic.
There is data that includes foods both in & out of my supposition.
[ Table 1.  Free Amino Acids in 8 Varieties of Carrots-and discussion (pps67-68)
[ Table 2:  Free Amino Acids in Apios Tubers  (p 69)
[ Table 3:  Free Amino Acids in Pisum Fresh Edible Pods  (p 70)
[ Table 4:  Free Amino Acids in the Juices of Winter Squash, Spinach,
Turnips, Poke Salad, a Strawberry and the Hoxsey Herbal Cancer Tonic  (pps
71-73)
Discussion and references  (pps 73-74)
<excerpt continues>..........p 73.
        We have discovered inside our cells, and the cells of all
creaturews, tiny bodies builtfromn RNA and proteins.  On these structures
we call ribosomes, proteins of our cells are made.  Messenger RNA
instructions from our DNA contains genfo {genetic information} for at least
30,000 different kinds of proteins.  The translation of the DNA
instructions thru RNA occurs on these ribosomes.  In essence we have
hundreds to many thousands of tiny assembling jigs inside our cells that
put together activated free 20 amino acids into long sequences, generally
150-200 amino acids long, following a specific RNA sequence assembled from
copies of the DNA.  We call these polyamino acids proteins.
        Since the basic system of protein synthesis is the same for all
cells, bacteria to humans,, including all plants, fungi, and animals, the
amino acids that feed it are primary food.  Pdroteins as food are broken
down into the commponent amino acids by our digestive juices.  Analyses of
most proteins show them to be made from a specific 20 amino acids.  In some
proteins, there are modifications of the coded 20 giving several others
generally found in trace amounts.
Some of our foods are from immature pods; snapbeans, snappeas and
okra are good examples.  We have found these to have the highest amounts of
free amino acids.
Divergence! Immature is unfinished! (I told you it was a simple principle).
This makes sense since the plants are making their
high-protein content seeds.
Right - for their own reproduction.
Next is roots, good sources for several of the
difficult to find, essential [his first use of the term here] amino acids: Potatoes, burdock, carrots, and
yacon.  The allium bulbs are good free amino acid sources particularly for
ones central to cellular sugar metabolism.  Other significant sources for
free amino acids are salad leaves of many genera and families, immature
flowerbuds and fruits like tomatoes.  [my emphasis - I personally eat a lot of them, and he's correctly pegged it as a fruit] Data and development of this
information are contained in four papers in Peace Seeds Resource Journals
3-7, 1987-1994.
        (p74)  A new horizon in  plant breeding appears by increasing the
amounts of free amino acids available in our current crops and by working
towards enhancing them in other crops like apples, strawberries, sweet corn
and the salad brassicas.
        Selection of vegetable, salad and fruit plant crops for the 20 code
amino acids is now a  potential direction for agriculture.  It is both
general and specific with a broad horizon that focuses on improving our
nutrition and as  a result, our health.  [end quote]
Once again - why "20" and why "free"?
        Well Doug, good question, "What's the budget?"  We stand on the
        shoulders of giants.              Best Regards, BBacon
Gee, I thought it was the other way around!  (I've consulted for a number of PhD's).
 

Any email address for Dr. Kapuler? (I may not be able to run a search on that for a few days).

 --

Douglas M. Hinds, Director General
Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR)
(Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit)
Petronilo Lopez No. 73 (Street Address)
Apdo. Postal No. 61 (Mailing Address)
Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO
U.S. Voice Mailbox:  1 630 300 0550 (e-mail linked)
U.S. Fax Mailbox:  1 630 300 0555 (e-mail linked)
Tel. & Fax:  011 523 412 6308 (direct)
e-mail: dmhinds@acnet.net, dhinds@ucol.mx,
cedecor@acnet.net, cedecor@ipnet.com.mx
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