mbox-26: Re: No-Till Mania vs Organic

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Karl,
You beat me to this post. I was down to the last post on No-till vs =
Organic when I came to your post. =20
WE DO HAVE WAY TOO MUCH CORN GROWN IN THE US. I think the US grazing =
movement is
proving that similiar gains or milk per acre and BETTER PROFITS PER =
ACRE for farmers are possible when we compare Management intensive =
grazing compared to corn.=20
We can't get serious about sustainable agriculture in the US until we =
realise that we don't need a better way to raise corn. We need a better =
way to raise livestock. What percentage of our crops are fed to =
livestock? What percent to ruminants? There isn't any reason very many =
ruminants in the whole country should be on grain based diets. And it =
doesn't even have to be just ruminant livestock to improve =
sustainability and dependance on corn. Chickens and pigs also can use =
high quality managed pasture. I had a 1950's pasture book that stated =
that most of a laying hens protein supply could be met with ladino =
clover pasture. But maybe chickens have changed???? Gestating sows =
really don't need much corn. They can do fine with pasture or hay and =
very little grain. And to tie this post in with the one about =
sustainable production practices of the past. Market hogs used to be =
grazed on alfalfa/clover pastures and limit fed grain. The pigs grain =
requirements were substantially reduced. The alfalfa pastures acheived =
more gains than the corn feilds. The pigs protein requirement while on =
high quality pasture were non existant. And it could be hay instead of =
pasture if we wanted to keep the equipment manufacturers happy???? But =
hay doesn't fit into a modern over capitalized confinement facility. =
The cost to house a pig per day is too high to add any fiber to a diet =
which can increase days to market even if it reduces the reliance on row =
crop agriculture. Its now standard to use soybean meal(perhaps from =
no-till soybeans) for the pigs protein requirements. The sustainable =
hog production of the past was done on diversified crop and livestock =
farms. It was and still is an economical, environmental and socially =
acceptable practice. I know it still works because my family has bucked =
all the trends to put our hogs in these fancy barns. I don't like to =
put a pig anywhere he can't eat something he is standing on and I can't =
get my pigs to eat concrete. Now most livestock farms and crop farms are =
completely specialized. A lot of the hogs, chickens, and cattle are not =
even close to the grain source, let alone a part of the rotation that =
includes high quality pasture.
Keep up the good posts Karl! Glad to see you are on the SANET. You =
are absolutely correct that the simplest answer is most often the best =
answer. But you are really trying to buck the trends in our modern, =
capital intensive, industrialized agriculture. Agribusiness stands to =
loose a lot if more farmers figure out they have economic power to gain =
by grazing rather than growing corn. Its refreshing to hear a Natural =
Resource Educator say that the solution to sustainability is simple. =
Where I'm from the extension service doesn't even realise we have a =
problem, let alone see the great opportunities of selling sunshine with =
the help of animal harvestors. I'm as far south as Iowa and most have =
found our ground is way too expensive to justify grazing. <ha><ha> (I'm =
sure you remember the post my wife put on the graze-l about the lack of =
interest of our extension agents.) =20
Best wishes,
Greg
Gunthorp's Pasture-ized Pork
LaGrange, Indiana (a stones throw from Ohio & Michigan)
hey4hogs@kuntrynet.com
visit our farm at www.grassfarmer.com =20
=20
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Karl Hakanson <hakanson@students.wisc.edu>
To: steved@ncatark.uark.edu <steved@ncatark.uark.edu>
Cc: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu <sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu>
Date: Thursday, August 06, 1998 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: No-Till Mania vs Organic
=20
=20
Greetings,
=20
Um, hate to sound simplistic here, but...
=20
We grow too much corn and beans! Get the cattle and hay and pasture =
and manure back to places like, ta-da...Iowa. Was it ever that way once =
or did we just dream it?
=20
What's wrong with gettin' all those ruminant doggies on (rotational) =
pastures and off those stinking mega feedlots. Oh, well, I mean besides =
big companies making big money just the ways things are.
=20
Was that a good fist post to sanet? I heard sanet was just a bunch =
of yuppies forever defining sustainable ag. Is that true?
=20
Good Day!
=20
Karl Hakanson
Natural Resource Educator
Univ. of Wisconsin-Extension
Baraboo, Wisconsin, USA (is this an international list?)
(significant, insightful, clever, knock em' dead "signature" here)
To Unsubscribe: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with "unsubscribe =
sanet-mg". To Subscribe to Digest: Email majordomo@ces.ncsu.edu with the =
command "subscribe sanet-mg-digest".=20

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We can't get serious about sustainable = agriculture in=20 the US until we realise that we don't need a better way to raise = corn. We=20 need a better way to raise livestock. What percentage of our crops are = fed to=20 livestock? What percent to ruminants? There isn't any reason = very=20 many ruminants in the whole country should be on grain based diets. And = it=20 doesn't even have to be just ruminant livestock to improve = sustainability and=20 dependance on corn. Chickens and pigs also can use high quality = managed=20 pasture. I had a 1950's pasture book that stated that most = of a=20 laying hens protein supply could be met with ladino clover = pasture. But=20 maybe chickens have changed???? Gestating sows really don't need much=20 corn. They can do fine with pasture or hay and very little = grain. =20 And to tie this post in with the one about sustainable production = practices of=20 the past. Market hogs used to be grazed on alfalfa/clover pastures = and=20 limit fed grain. The pigs grain requirements were substantially=20 reduced. The alfalfa pastures acheived more gains than the corn=20 feilds. The pigs protein requirement while on high quality pasture = were=20 non existant. And it could be hay instead of pasture if we wanted = to keep=20 the equipment manufacturers happy???? But hay doesn't fit into a = modern=20 over capitalized confinement facility. The cost to house a pig per = day is=20 too high to add any fiber to a diet which can increase days to market = even if it=20 reduces the reliance on row crop agriculture. Its now standard to = use=20 soybean meal(perhaps from no-till soybeans) for the pigs protein=20 requirements. The sustainable hog production of the past was done = on=20 diversified crop and livestock farms. It was and still is an = economical,=20 environmental and socially acceptable practice. I know it still works = because my=20 family has bucked all the trends to put our hogs in these fancy = barns. I=20 don't like to put a pig anywhere he can't eat something he is standing = on and I=20 can't get my pigs to eat concrete. Now most livestock farms and crop = farms are=20 completely specialized. A lot of the hogs, chickens, and cattle = are not=20 even close to the grain source, let alone a part of the rotation that = includes=20 high quality pasture.

Keep up the good posts Karl! Glad to = see you are=20 on the SANET. You are absolutely correct that the simplest answer = is most=20 often the best answer. But you are really trying to buck the = trends in our=20 modern, capital intensive, industrialized agriculture. = Agribusiness stands=20 to loose a lot if more farmers figure out they have economic power to = gain by=20 grazing rather than growing corn. Its refreshing to hear a Natural = Resource Educator say that the solution to sustainability is = simple. Where=20 I'm from the extension service doesn't even realise we have a problem, = let alone=20 see the great opportunities of selling sunshine with the help of animal=20 harvestors. I'm as far south as Iowa and most have found our = ground is way=20 too expensive to justify grazing. <ha><ha> (I'm sure you = remember=20 the post my wife put on the graze-l about the lack of interest of our = extension=20 agents.)