A few scattered responses are interspersed below with your comments
kathryn marsh wrote:
> Douglas (and Frits)
> >> Compulsory certification is bad for many reasons:
> >If you mean to use the word 'Organic'
> >The word ORGANIC is only alowed to be used by CERTIFIED
> >growers/farmers in Europe.
> >There are lots of farmers working organic but not certified, they
> >cannot use the word Organic, or the national equivalent of the word.
> Local growers can always say "come and see how we grow it - if you like it
> buy it. Don't need to put it on the open market with an organic label. I
> know quite a few of these
> >> It is inconsistent with the needs of CSA operations and local consumption
> >> preferences in general;
> >If you know your farmer/consumer this works fine.
> >> It drives costs up unnecessarily for many long time, truly organic farmers
> >> incapable of covering those costs;
> >There should be some subsidising from the government.
> >conventional farmers let the environment and later generations pay
> >for there way of producing.
> Hear hear! In Ireland 1/5th of crop certification is subsidised, none of
> livestock production
> >> It is prohibitive of the right to free speech and to offer one's product to
> >> the public of one's choice on the basis of it's own merits;
> >You can still say that yyour produce is grown organicly but you can't
> >prove it.
> So long as you don't do it in a shop - private sales only
> >> There are alternative and depending on the circumstances, frequently
> >> preferable methods of determining whether a given product complies with the
> >> standard;
> >someone has to check it and someone has to pay for checking the
> specify please douglas
Certification doesn't have to be compulsory. I am not opposed to
Certified (not necessarily as organic) labs could check for residues,
for instance; if that's agreed to by both buyer & seller - who could
split the cost of analysis between them or - the buyer could pay if no
residues of prohibited (traditionally not organic) substances are found,
the seller if there are. It would worked out between them.
> >> It is a measure designed to provide unwarranted and unearned advantages
> >>to the
> >> certifier and/or distributor rather than the farmer and/or consumer, and
> >> explains the push the measure has received from certain quarters;
> >The certifier has to be independant in the way they work from the
> >government but dependent from international organic rules.
> I'm on the board of an irish certifier and believe me Douglas it costs me
> to do it - the certifier receives no benefit except hard work - totally non
> profit! The distributor gets exactly the same benefit as the farmer -
> consumer trust. The most frequently asked question from consumers is how do
> I know it really is organic
> >> Certification is a matter that's best left to be determined by buyers and
> >> sellers of organic products. It will be indicated in many if not most
> >> instances, but inappropriate to others;
> >I would't trust market driven certifiers.
> Are you really saying that someone who is selling the produce is the best
> person to certify -
No - I'm saying the buyer is who should determine if he needs the
product certified or not, and which certifiers are acceptable to him or
> so if a farmer linked into Monsanto says GMOs are
> organic that is fine by you.
You have misunderstood my position.
> Or does he have to individually explain to
> each customer the precise details of his individually tailored farming
> scheme, what organic farming is, what sort of soil and residue tests he
> uses, what organic is, the benefits of organic farming etc - and if he does
> all this when does he have time to farm.
He could have a website - many do, or pamphlets made. But once again, I
am not opposed to certification - just compulsory certification. Most
sales may well require certification. The question is: Do they all?
And who decides?
> The biggest problem people I know
> who run CSAs have is that the time they spend talking to customers makes it
> difficult for them to have time to grow food
Maybe they are filling personal or social needs. CSA's usually let
people pick their own - that should suffice (subscribers would see for
> >> The dangers of compulsory certification under the control of a single
> >> governmental agency were amply demonstrated when the word "organic" came all
> >> too close to legally meaning things it has NEVER been meant to mean by any
> >> serious and dedicated participant, due to the excessive powers granted to
> >> government and their "sweethearts" by OFPA;
> >Countries like Germany, brittain, belgium have more than one
> >organisation for certification. The Netherlands only have one.
> We have 3 in Ireland - works fine
> >All EU certifiers use the same rules.
> Not true Frits - we all meet the same basic set of standards but there are
> lots of derogations, local add ons, variations according to local
> conditions etc. There are quite a few things in the European standards we
> wouldn't allow in Ireland and some that work the other way (potato blight
> controls for instance) and there will be even more variation in the
> forthcoming livestock standards with some countries demanding permanent
> housing because of climatic conditions and others banning it. Nearly all
> individual standards are higher than the EU basic.
Viva la variacion!
> But a good law allows for this - the proposed USDA rule was just
> unbelievably bad in all sorts of ways
> On points made by Sal and others in the past - EU governments license local
> certifiers free, gratis and for nothing - they just let them do the hard
> work for no government pay so European growers don't have to pay anyone
> except the local certifier they have always been with. If your local
> standards and inspection schemes are as good as the EU minimum they can be
Kathryn, you made some good points. Perhaps I hadn't made myself clear.
Douglas M. Hinds Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR) (Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit) Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO e-mail: email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com, firstname.lastname@example.org
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