Douglas M. Hinds wrote:
>
> Bob MacGregor wrote:
>
> > In addition to the impatience factor I mentioned in my earlier post, the
> > practice of grafting is a market advantage because it homogenizes the
> > product (particularly for apples).
>
> This is true. However, it's much more true with some fruits and varieties than
> with others. Quite a few are genetically stable and are therefore ready to
> grow from seed, much as an open pollinated standard variety is, in row crops.
> Many strains of citrus, mangoes, some varieties of avocados, sapotes and
> cherimoyas (my experience is mainly with subtropicals) have been consistently
> grown from seed successfully. The exceptions will take more work, but that
> involves nothing more than seed selection and a little patience. Remember that
> all varieties originate from seed (except the unpredictable sport) and that
> being variable means that the offspring can be better, worse or just different
> (not all people share the same preferences, and not all varieties will be
> adaptable to the same conditions, anyway).
>
> > My acreage -- indeed the whole of
> > Prince Edward Island -- is covered by scattered apple tree seedlings. In
> > the late summer/early fall, I enjoy going on walks and sampling the
> > apples. Every one is different (which would make it hard to establish a
> > reliable market presence) and many (I'd say most) are not very palatable.
> > Trying to establish a whole orchard of more-or-less similar apple trees
> > from seed would be a big, very time-consuming job, I'd think.
>
> You are looking at a marketing problem. I am looking at a defect that as far
> as I'm concerned, makes all grafted fruit unfit to eat. I literally hate
> eating it, and the only time I do so is by mistake. The difference is much more
> than qualitative. It's a totally different experience and I want no part of
> it. Of course the difference was noted in the late 60īs, so I've had ample
> opportunity to build on it.
>
> Why don't you take seed from the best seedlings and maintain a moist seed bed?
> It would be interesting to note what percentage of those proved to be of
> exceptional quality, and what percentage reverted to something less desirable
> (that may never the less be genetically valuable).
>
> > I seem to recall from my years in Riverside that citrus and stone fruits
> > grew pretty well there, but we had to head to the hills to find successful
> > apple orchards (Riverside didn't have adequate cold dormancy period for
> > reliable apple production -- or, maybe it was the smog!!). Was the UCR
> > research on apples or pears or on stone-fruit?
>
> I was working with Bob Berg and it was avocados, most (but not all ) of which
> were in Tustin. But I've have access to other groves with many seedlings (The
> U. of Arizona, The USDA groves in Palm Desert, Brock Ranches between Yuma and
> El Centro, and many private groves in CA and Mexico). I do remember some
> excellent seedling pears.
>
> > We did a minor amount
> > of grafting of plums, apricots and peaches at home in Riverside, but I
> > never noticed any difference in flavour between the fruit from the parent
> > (seed-grown) tree and that from the grafted stock.
>
> Many or most plums and apricots will also come true to seed. To perceive the
> difference you should eat the seedlings before ingesting anything else that
> day. And once you eat single a grafted fruit you'll lose your edge and find it
> hard to regain it during the course of that day and sometimes even for the next
> few days. I'd rather eat non organic seedlings (within reason - if not drowned
> in insecticide), than grafted organic fruit. (Obviously organic seedlings
> would be best). And good seedling strains that come true to seed will have to
> be developed in many cases. They're individuals, of course. Grafting is an
> abominable form of cloning (which is bad enough in itself), because there's
> always a degree of conflict between rootstock and scion.
>
> > On my land, it has been my observation that the wild apple seedlings are
> > very vigourous and hardy. In addition, because they are mostly
> > scattered around the edges of old fields and pastures, they tend to have
> > very little insect damage compared to fruit or trees in an unattended (ie,
> > untreated) orchard situation. A futher observation (though not a
> > rigourously-quantified one) of mine is that the trees with the best-tasting
> > fruit seem to be the ones that are more likely to be girdled by mice in the
> > winter (I have lost some of my favourites this way).
>
> Why do they do that? Do they prefer them? You should be able to keep the mice
> off your trees (use tanglefoot or grease / vaseline over a plastic band, or a
> shallow water filled concrete basin - it could be a bicycle tire cut in half
> and dug in to ground level, etc.).
>
> > My long-term plan
> > is to graft scions from the good-tasting wild apples onto the vigourous,
> > and more mouse-resistant rootstock of the sour wild apples (and prune
> > appropriately over subsequent years).
>
> You won't get the same results. It will be a caricature of the wild favorite.
>
> > I don't expect the resulting fruit
> > to be harmful to me or to the wildlife that share the fruit with me.
>
> Harmful? How harmful is it to not live? To not be yourself? It's deprivation
> and distortion. It's like disease.
>
> > As I
> > continue to get to know my apples better, I'll know which ones I like best
> > for fresh eating, for pies, for applesauce. I don't care much whether my
> > wild apples are "brand name" MacIntosh, Red Delicious, Jonathan or
> > whatever -- but when I buy apples in the grocery store, I like to have a
> > little more predictability in what I'm buying (my local stores frown on
> > taste-testing as you go). I just don't see large-volume fruit supply
> > working very well (at least for apples) without grafting.
>
> Not for now it won't. People depend on labels, but that's in large part due to
> having lost their own power of discrimination.
>
> > I agree that your hypothesis about grafting _could_ be correct, but I
> > remain to be convinced of significant -- if any -- adverse effects of
> > grafting.
>
> Neither you nor anybody else is going to be convinced as long as there's no
> availability. There's no basis for comparison.
>
> > Unfortunately, since it doesn't seem to be a research priority
> > for anyone, we aren't likely to find out the truth of the matter anytime
> > soon.
>
> That's correct. No one who doesn't bother to look into it, is going to know
> whether he's missing anything or not.
>
> > BOB
>
> --
>
> Douglas M. Hinds
> Centro para el Desarrollo Comunitario y Rural A.C. (CeDeCoR)
> (Center for Community and Rural Development) - (non profit)
> Cd. Guzman, Jalisco 49000 MEXICO
> e-mail: cedecor@ipnet.com.mx, dmhinds@acnet.net, dhinds@ucol.mx
>
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