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In a message dated 98-02-20 15:05:00 EST, MAILER-DAEMON@aol.com writes:
> In reply to the message:
> >
> > I saw your posting. I would have done this to the list in general, but
> > I can not figure out how to get a message to the list. Among other
> > things, if you reply, I would appreciate it if you would let me know
> > how.
> send to: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.unc.edu
>
> You had written with this scenario:
>
> > My brother is a small (15 acre) organic grower in eastern Massachusetts.
>
> > We have been thinking of using the system described by teasdale & others
> > at the Beltsville Agricultural Station.
> >
> > My real question concerns hairy vetch & vegetable crops. I have read
> > the research done at the Beltsville station on using hairy vetch as a
> > mulch for vegetable crops. Their system seems to be plant vetch(perhaps
> > together with rye) in late summer/early fall). Mow the vetch the next
> > spring and plant into the crop residue. In this instance we are
> > thinking of transplanted crops: tomato, cucumber, squash, eggplant,
> > pepper, etc. My concern is that the vetch seems to regrow unless it is
> > sprayed with something like roundup. In addition, there also seems to
> > be significant weed emergence later in the summer unless weed killers
> > are used. Do you have any experience with this? Is this an accurate
> > summation or am I making a problem where none exists.
> >
> > Any assistance you could give would be most appreciated.
> >
> > Bill McKay at Butter Brook Farm, Acton, Massachusetts
>
> We plow down our vetch/oat and incorporates it when preparing our field.
To
> do a no-till vegetable production system you need to see Steve Groff in
> action
> (sgroff@epix.net ????). He has got it going on for real, but uses a bit of
> herbacide. He has managed without it, but I'll let him explain. Thing is
> with no-till for organic production, you have to have low-weed pressure in
> the
> field. Also, I have a feeling that location (lattitude) has a role to
play
> here in terms of weed cycles. On our farm here in southern Maryland for
> example, we have a hard time with stale bed preparation for early crops,
> once
> the soils warm up, the pig weed comes on. I think we would have similar
> problems in no-till, as early weeds will be supressed, but "the pig" will
> surely bust through. Steve Groff has this wonderful rolling stalk chopper
> that he uses to lay, while cutting the cover crop. When using a mower, the
> cover crop gets obliterated, and breakes down faster. This then apparently
> limits its mulching effect. Abdul Baki at the Beltsville station has a
> roller
> with something like angle iron in it. This crimps the cover crop at the
> soil
> surface, and lays it down whole much like Steve's. I am sceptical of this
> roller, but will be trying that method this season. We'll see.
> The thing here is scale. Like you, I have about a fifteen acre market
> garden.
> This no-till vegetables is a heaping load of trouble to go through for just
> a
> few crops, not totaling many acres. Steve Groff grows larger plantings for
> commodity markets. He can afford to wait for the cover crop to flower,
our
> markets cannot wait. Also he can use a little herbacide, we cant. I'm
> gonna
> try some no-till veg's this year, but Ive got my critical cap on. I'm just
> not sure the soil quality benefits can justify the increased management
time.
>
> Jonathan Moscatello
>
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To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.unc.edu, bmckay55@hotmail.com
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In reply to the message:
>
> I saw your posting. I would have done this to the list in general, but
> I can not figure out how to get a message to the list. Among other
> things, if you reply, I would appreciate it if you would let me know
> how.
send to: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.unc.edu
You had written with this scenario:
> My brother is a small (15 acre) organic grower in eastern Massachusetts.
> We have been thinking of using the system described by teasdale & others
> at the Beltsville Agricultural Station.
>
> My real question concerns hairy vetch & vegetable crops. I have read
> the research done at the Beltsville station on using hairy vetch as a
> mulch for vegetable crops. Their system seems to be plant vetch(perhaps
> together with rye) in late summer/early fall). Mow the vetch the next
> spring and plant into the crop residue. In this instance we are
> thinking of transplanted crops: tomato, cucumber, squash, eggplant,
> pepper, etc. My concern is that the vetch seems to regrow unless it is
> sprayed with something like roundup. In addition, there also seems to
> be significant weed emergence later in the summer unless weed killers
> are used. Do you have any experience with this? Is this an accurate
> summation or am I making a problem where none exists.
>
> Any assistance you could give would be most appreciated.
>
> Bill McKay at Butter Brook Farm, Acton, Massachusetts
We plow down our vetch/oat and incorporates it when preparing our field. To
do a no-till vegetable production system you need to see Steve Groff in action
(sgroff@epix.net ????). He has got it going on for real, but uses a bit of
herbacide. He has managed without it, but I'll let him explain. Thing is
with no-till for organic production, you have to have low-weed pressure in the
field. Also, I have a feeling that location (lattitude) has a role to play
here in terms of weed cycles. On our farm here in southern Maryland for
example, we have a hard time with stale bed preparation for early crops, once
the soils warm up, the pig weed comes on. I think we would have similar
problems in no-till, as early weeds will be supressed, but "the pig" will
surely bust through. Steve Groff has this wonderful rolling stalk chopper
that he uses to lay, while cutting the cover crop. When using a mower, the
cover crop gets obliterated, and breakes down faster. This then apparently
limits its mulching effect. Abdul Baki at the Beltsville station has a roller
with something like angle iron in it. This crimps the cover crop at the soil
surface, and lays it down whole much like Steve's. I am sceptical of this
roller, but will be trying that method this season. We'll see.
The thing here is scale. Like you, I have about a fifteen acre market garden.
This no-till vegetables is a heaping load of trouble to go through for just a
few crops, not totaling many acres. Steve Groff grows larger plantings for
commodity markets. He can afford to wait for the cover crop to flower, our
markets cannot wait. Also he can use a little herbacide, we cant. I'm gonna
try some no-till veg's this year, but Ive got my critical cap on. I'm just
not sure the soil quality benefits can justify the increased management time.
Jonathan Moscatello
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From: "William McKay" <bmckay55@hotmail.com>
To: Fgu3@aol.com
Subject: Re: Hairy Vetch a weed?
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:42:03 PST
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I saw your posting. I would have done this to the list in general, but
I can not figure out how to get a message to the list. Among other
things, if you reply, I would appreciate it if you would let me know
how.
My brother is a small (15 acre) organic grower in eastern Massachusetts.
We have been thinking of using the system described by teasdale & others
at the Beltsville Agricultural Station.
My real question concerns hairy vetch & vegetable crops. I have read
the research done at the Beltsville station on using hairy vetch as a
mulch for vegetable crops. Their system seems to be plant vetch(perhaps
together with rye) in late summer/early fall). Mow the vetch the next
spring and plant into the crop residue. In this instance we are
thinking of transplanted crops: tomato, cucumber, squash, eggplant,
pepper, etc. My concern is that the vetch seems to regrow unless it is
sprayed with something like roundup. In addition, there also seems to
be significant weed emergence later in the summer unless weed killers
are used. Do you have any experience with this? Is this an accurate
summation or am I making a problem where none exists.
We have thought of several ways to deal with post planting emergence of
weeds (plant buckwheat or rye in the row aisles in the spring, mow it
later in the summer and rake it over to the vegetable rows as a mulch
which would suppress most of the weeds. However, if the vetch reemerges
in the rows of vegetables, we have a major problem. The one person I
know in Massachusetts who tried this system had a major problem both
with vetch reemergence as well as weeds. However, I am not sure if he
waited until the vetch flowered before he mowed it.
Any assistance you could give would be most appreciated.
Bill McKay at Butter Brook Farm, Acton, Massachusetts
>From owner-sanet-mg@ces.ncsu.edu Thu Feb 19 13:20:32 1998
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>Message-ID: <4d57f8a0.34ec9d22@aol.com>
>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:59:12 EST
>To: sanet-mg@shasta.ces.ncsu.edu
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>Subject: Re: Hairy Vetch a weed?
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>
>Art,
>We have been using hairy vetch here on our farm for about six or seven
years
>now. Vetch and oats are our winter cover crop mix ( in Southern
Maryland oats
>over-winter) which, consequently, is our sole fertility source for
tomatoes
>and other summer crops. Our yields are satisfactory and volunteer
vetch is
>not a problem with summer vegetable crops. Just as Steve Groff wrote,
small
>grain crops will suffer from volunteer problems with hairy vetch.
However,
>volunteers of a different source are our savior. We walk our feed oat
fields
>with volunteers from local civic groups, and pull out flowering/seed
setting
>hairy vetch. Since we plant no more than a five acres, it's fun and
>educational for the human volunteers. As an organic operation, 2 4 D
is not
>an option, but it would be an easy and reliable tool. The monitoring
which is
>required to manage for volunteer vetch in a small grain crop would, in
my
>opinion, be offset by the benefits the hairy vetch offers.
>Best Wishes,
>Jonathan Moscatello
>
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